My thoughts on social gatherings.......

9 Apr 2005

Good point freckledbird.
the way we did it was by talking to the couple for a few weeks prior to the event by PMs.
I honestly don't know how to stop the "wrong" kind of person from picking up newbies. Maybe asking the organisers of the event or a mod who they think may be reliable? dunno

9 Apr 2005

Possibly asking a mod/the organiser would be a good idea, yes. That might work because, even though they might not see everything that happens, they will have seen a lot of the goings-on or have been told about them and know who to avoid 'recommending' (and I used that because I couldn't think of a better word).

9 Apr 2005

Quote by freckledbird
Possibly asking a mod/the organiser would be a good idea, yes. That might work because, even though they might not see everything that happens, they will have seen a lot of the goings-on or have been told about them and know who to avoid 'recommending' (and I used that because I couldn't think of a better word.

But don't you think they have enough on their plates without constant pm's from munch organisers (we arent just talking one munch at a time here)
Smacks a bit of the dreaded "v" word in my opinion.
C x

9 Apr 2005

OK, we're up to 7 pages now. I think a lot's been said that needed to be said, and I think everyone who has read this will go away and think about it. But where do we go from here?
There can surely be no disagreement that any form of non consensual behaviour will not be tolerated, whethe it be at a munch, meet, party, or whatever confused

And that any offender will be ejected from the munch and banned from the site - agreed?
However, this is as far as we have got. Yes, a munch is a social "vanilla" event... but as Venus said the definition of "vanilla" may be different to different people. I don't think anyone really wants to outlaw kissing at munches, do they? I mean how bizarre that would be if a couple would be ordered out if they happened to have a kiss during the evening!
My personal view is that anything that you would see on a non-swinging night out in an average pub is OK. That would mean (to me at least) that BJs in public would be a non no, as would walking about topless. Flirting, dancing etc would be fine.
Oh dunno, I'm tired rolleyes

I'm just trying to get a kinda reaction as to where people generally see the line to acceptable CONSENTING behaviour???

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Calista
Possibly asking a mod/the organiser would be a good idea, yes. That might work because, even though they might not see everything that happens, they will have seen a lot of the goings-on or have been told about them and know who to avoid 'recommending' (and I used that because I couldn't think of a better word.

But don't you think they have enough on their plates without constant pm's from munch organisers (we arent just talking one munch at a time here)
Smacks a bit of the dreaded "v" word in my opinion.
C x
Maybe this is where the time limit for people joining to them attending Munches comes in. Anyone who's been here a few months will probably have seen someone they can get on and feel comfortable with. Maybe asking a mod for a "reference" as to this persons suitability if they are still a little unsure.
I honestly don't know how this kind of thing would work. We only made it as a suggestion to be bounced around and see if it was feasable.
easy (wishes he'd not said anything to Countess now :doh: lol

)

9 Apr 2005

I agree that a munch is a social meet only and should be that.
Anything that is arranged for after the munch is up to the individual and is not connected.
Some people however, don't understand the concept of no pressure and social and need to be either reminded sternly or banned from attending in my view.
Luckily I've only ever had a problem with one person at a munch and I can assure you if that person comes near me again I will act violently in self defense.
I may be small in height but I expect respect.

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Calista
Possibly asking a mod/the organiser would be a good idea, yes. That might work because, even though they might not see everything that happens, they will have seen a lot of the goings-on or have been told about them and know who to avoid 'recommending' (and I used that because I couldn't think of a better word.

But don't you think they have enough on their plates without constant pm's from munch organisers (we arent just talking one munch at a time here)
Smacks a bit of the dreaded "v" word in my opinion.
C x
Sorry Calista, I know it does, just couldn't think of a better word. I didn't mean for it to sound like the 'V' word, honestly. And yes, they do have a lot on their plates but my thought was that, they might be less biased than some other members.

9 Apr 2005

Quote by easy
Maybe this is where the time limit for people joining to them attending Munches comes in. Anyone who's been here a few months will probably have seen someone they can get on and feel comfortable with. Maybe asking a mod for a "reference" as to this persons suitability if they are still a little unsure.
I honestly don't know how this kind of thing would work. We only made it as a suggestion to be bounced around and see if it was feasable.
easy (wishes he'd not said anything to Countess now :doh: )

Well, I'm not sure using the mods as referees would be that useful to be honest. What if someone had been hanging around on the forum for a while, seemed genuine enough on site, but was a total arsehole in real life..... we (as mods) wouldn't be able to tell that just as any other person wouldn't either. I would feel that an unfair pressure would be put on me (as a mod) at having to give a "reference" to someone that I had never actually met... and even if I had met them once or twice, I still wouldn't really "know" them, would I?
I think the way to go is to clarify to EVERYONE attending munches - newbies and those not so new - what is and what is not acceptable behaviour (in my personal view, not speaking as a mod this time!)

9 Apr 2005

From my experience of "organising" I find pays to stick to a basic set of rules that all the partiipants will know , understand and hopefully abide by. Without doub't there will allways be "The one" who will be a problem but the key here is to have a pre arranged strategy to stop them before the situation gets out of annoys others.
Door staff , bar staff and "the management" all play a vital role and its a tough job but having said that it can be fun working with a good team!
Good luck, THE MANAGEMENT (sorry lads not tonight.....wrong dress, strictly no clothes allowed...)

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Bluexxx
My personal view is that anything that you would see on a non-swinging night out in an average pub is OK. That would mean (to me at least) that BJs in public would be a non no, as would walking about topless. Flirting, dancing etc would be fine.

I think that sounds reasonable Blue.

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Calista
Possibly asking a mod/the organiser would be a good idea, yes. That might work because, even though they might not see everything that happens, they will have seen a lot of the goings-on or have been told about them and know who to avoid 'recommending' (and I used that because I couldn't think of a better word.

But don't you think they have enough on their plates without constant pm's from munch organisers (we arent just talking one munch at a time here)

Tell me something I don't know C rolleyes

You would not believe how many questions and pm's we have to deal with when it comes to a munch. To be honest, this week I've had so many pms I've felt like I've been dealing with a group of school kids :roll:
It is very hard for us to recomend people for anything when alot of what we encounter is hearsay anyway
We need to get back to basics. Remember why we are all here and the rules of the events we are attending
Dawn

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Lil_Bunny
Luckily I've only ever had a problem with one person at a munch and I can assure you if that person comes near me again I will act violently in self defense.
I may be small in height but I expect respect.

Another thing after reading this and the host of other situations that have come to light today... I think (somehow, not sure how) we need to make it easier for people to tell others of the problems like this and to make it clearer to offenders what happens to people who behave inappropriately (again, speaking personally, not as a mod)... Having said that, I'm waaaaaaaaaay aware that reporting "offenders" to mods or munch organisers is open to abuse... one word against another... etc etc...... we'll be holding weekly law courts next :shock: confused

9 Apr 2005

Sorry Dawn and Blue, didn't mean to upset either of you. sad

9 Apr 2005

Quote by freckledbird
My personal view is that anything that you would see on a non-swinging night out in an average pub is OK. That would mean (to me at least) that BJs in public would be a non no, as would walking about topless. Flirting, dancing etc would be fine.

I think that sounds reasonable Blue.
I agree, I also think that the venue needs very careful consideration. Whilst having it upstairs in a pub is ideal if the bar dowstairs is going to be the one supplying drinks, then that needs to be considered, again with clubs, if a munch is to be held in/near a club then very clear boundaires need to be outlined from the off.
If people are concerned about another person attending then whilst is is wise to let the organiser know, one person should not necessarily influence the "banning" of another.
C x

9 Apr 2005

Quote by freckledbird
My personal view is that anything that you would see on a non-swinging night out in an average pub is OK. That would mean (to me at least) that BJs in public would be a non no, as would walking about topless. Flirting, dancing etc would be fine.

I think that sounds reasonable Blue.
Yes it does but we have to stress the word CONSENT here surely.
We can not allow anyone to be in a position they feel bloody uncomfortable about mad

9 Apr 2005

Quote by bluexxx
Luckily I've only ever had a problem with one person at a munch and I can assure you if that person comes near me again I will act violently in self defense.
I may be small in height but I expect respect.

Another thing after reading this and the host of other situations that have come to light today... I think (somehow, not sure how) we need to make it easier for people to tell others of the problems like this and to make it clearer to offenders what happens to people who behave inappropriately (again, speaking personally, not as a mod)... Having said that, I'm waaaaaaaaaay aware that reporting "offenders" to mods or munch organisers is open to abuse... one word against another... etc etc...... we'll be holding weekly law courts next :shock: confused

I can see your point Bluexx and I agree, but as I'm pretty confident in most situations and get on well with most I don't see why some guys still see me as fair game. I'm single not desperate.
Walking into a place where you know little if any of the people there is pretty daunting at times. Weekly law courts aren't needed but a way of reporting anyone offensive or irrespectful could help.

9 Apr 2005

As a newbie who has never been to a munch maybe I can add something. A problem with many social meetings (not SH, but any) where there is an existing conclave who all know each other is ensuring that new members are made welcome and, as part of that welcome, become aware of what is expected. If a group of "old hands" were bahaving in a certain manner it is quite possible that a newbie would mis-read the rules.
I used to chair a social club for 18-30 year olds (when the Earth was young...) and we found it useful to appoint two hosts - male and female - who would act as the introduction person for a new member looking (as so often) somewhat lost.
This allowed a degree of control and ensured that the first-timer enjoyed a low-risk and happy (mostly) visit. Does anything like that happen at munches?
Mac69

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Calista
I agree, I also think that the venue needs very careful consideration. Whilst having it upstairs in a pub is ideal if the bar dowstairs is going to be the one supplying drinks, then that needs to be considered, again with clubs, if a munch is to be held in/near a club then very clear boundaires need to be outlined from the off.

I am unsure where the difference is to be honest C. Surely if we are behaving as we would in a night club then the boundaries will be the same where ever it is held? Specially when we have bar staff to consider.

Quote by Calista
If people are concerned about another person attending then whilst is is wise to let the organiser know, one person should not necessarily influence the "banning" of another.
C x

It almost seem as if people are banned for personal reasons and then pmming other organisers in attempt to persuade then to ban people from a munch with no genuine reason dunno

Dawn

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Calista
If people are concerned about another person attending then whilst is is wise to let the organiser know, one person should not necessarily influence the "banning" of another.
C x

Having nearly fallen foul of this myself, I'm obviously going to be biased in agreeing with Calista.
I also agree with what Alleyson said earlier about "now the subject has been raised . . . "
I am though beginning to feel that maybesome of the more established members could be a little more aware of what's going on around them. I think it's quite easy to spot someone feeling uneasy about something that happening to them, especially from a short distance. How easy would it be for "me" to lean or wander over to "Calista" and quietly ask if she's ok? Or even ask her for a quick word, thereby removing her from the situation. I'm not for one minute suggesting we have marshalls and deputies on duty wandering around the place glaring at people, just perhaps a little more conscious consideration.
And before the wolves start - I use "me" and "Calista" as examples only. I'm usually far too pissed to be of any use to anyone wink

9 Apr 2005

Quote by freckledbird
Sorry Dawn and Blue, didn't mean to upset either of you.

Don't worry, you didn't kiss

The fact we are all talking about the issues I raised and attempting to come to some sort of conclusion is whats important biggrin

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Dawn_Mids
My personal view is that anything that you would see on a non-swinging night out in an average pub is OK. That would mean (to me at least) that BJs in public would be a non no, as would walking about topless. Flirting, dancing etc would be fine.

I think that sounds reasonable Blue.
Yes it does but we have to stress the word CONSENT here surely.
We can not allow anyone to be in a position they feel bloody uncomfortable about mad

Yes, this is all about what is acceptable consenting behaviour.. as I said, I was assuming that no-one would believe that any form of non consent was OK. What we should define is the line where CONSENTING behaviours become inappropriate.... I was assuming that the examples above would not be appropriate consenting behaviours as they would not be acceptable in the average pub.
Of course people feeling pressured into any action - whether that be hugging, touching, kssing or whatever would be considered non consent immediately. I guess that is where respect and common sense come into play. Respecting people's boundaries of personal space (as in not rushing up to someone and hugging them or snogging them) would be go without saying to most in every other situation and of course it applies to munches too! I think it was Ice Pie that said that some people seem to be ignoring or disregarding body langauge (sorry Ice if I'm misquoting you here) - maybe this needs to be spelled out more firmly? I think some of the situations that have been problems are due to people being over familiar with people who are actually strangers..... maybe it needs to be said that just cos you chat to people online, it doesn't mean you can be physically familiar with them right from the offset in real life?

9 Apr 2005

I've just been reading this thread with some interest.
As a newbie (and after reassurance from db) I 've put my name down to attend the next Notts munch, if possible. However after reading this tonight I'm having second thoughts, although I'm a member here I'm still fairly shy and not outgoing in RL, so would probably be the 'one' in the corner at a munch holding everyones coats.
Never having been to any munches before I can't comment on the things that have been said, but think now that this topic has been discussed, it might make those people likely to act irresponsibly, be a little more thoughtful of others feelings now, and munches can get back to/carry on being the purely social events they were intended to be.

Alleyson..... it's people like yourself and Tune Essence that worry me when I read a thread like this. Shit I know that came out wrong already, let me try to explain properly.
It worries me that people who have never been to a munch will read this and think "Omg they're all bloody perverts! I'm never going to a munch!" Let me try and put in perspective for you.
Before I went to my very first munch (last May in Manchester) I'd read all the definitions and other threads about the fact that it was a purely social meet in a vanilla environment and that no play would take place. In my naivete (sp?) I thought it was just "hardened swingers" saying that to entice newbies like me along, but that when I got there I'd be subjected to sights of people shagging on pool tables and in toilets and basically anywhere else I might look. Basically, I was terrified. I'd never been to anything remotely like it before and had no idea what to expect, despite the numerous threads and posts about munches and parties.
Reading this thread, all those fears come flooding back to me, and as a single female if I was to read this I'd never ever go to a munch because this makes it look as though anyone you smile at or even look at in the wrong way is likely to make a pass at you.
I say again - this is not the case.
There have been a fewisolated cases where people have overstepped the mark and behaved in a way that has made one or more people feel very uncomfortable, to the point where those people are now questioning whether they want to attend any further SH socials.
I'd like to think that this thread will highlight the problems and make sure that they are tackled - preferably to the point that this kind of situation will never arise again. I'm still very concerned that while this thread is entirely justified, it could serve to prevent some people from ever attending a munch.
I think that all of us as a communityshould make sure that nobody is ever put in a position where they feel threatened or out of their depth. Somehow, we need to find a way to keep that "New Years Eve party" feel, whilst also protecting ourselves and our fellow members from any kind of unwanted advances.
How we do that is actually beyond me dunno

Quote by Angel Chat
New post cos I'm actually a bit pissed and missed out the most important part
When I got to my first munch, I was terrified. I clung to the bar, and as Fred Flintstone will testify, it took someone rather strong to prise my fingers from the bar so that I'd actually talk to people. Yes, I got very drunk, but I said the next day that I couldn't believe how normal the people there were. People that I could easily imagine being on the school PTA or colleagues at work. Nice people who made me feel at ease and welcomed me with open arms and made me feel at home. It's a very rare community is this one.
Yes, there have been some problems at munches, and some people have stepped way over the boundaries that exist for all of our comfort and safety. Let's not forget though, how many people these munches have brought together in a social environment. How many friendships have been forged.
I've had so many visitors over the last few weeks while I've been off sick from work. People have driven from London, Blackburn, Coventry, Staffordshire and the other side of Manchester, just to make me a cup of coffee, have a natter and then drive home. ALl of these people have been initially met at munches, and I can only think of 2 of those visitors that I've had anything more than social interraction with.
Munches are a fantastic way to meet new friends, whether they be purely social friends, friends that you end up shagging, or something else. Let's not let a few complete tw@s who can't read and understand the rules spoil that for newcomers please!!

what angel said! kiss

my earlier concerns that people might be put off by thoughts that munches are THAT kind of event get worse!
munches are not like that! we all get drunk, we all hug and kiss people we ain't seen for ages and really miss, we all flirt for england, some of us snog eachothers faces off. but only cos we are all consensual adults, and know that in that instance it's appropriate, and make of things what we will. this thread is beginning to make munches sound like some perv fest, that people should be really concerned about attending.
let's keep a little perspective on it! i would no more slip my hand down someones top at a munch than i would doing my saturday shop at tescos. course, if at a munch, someone invites me to do that in a playful way, i won't complain! doesn't mean i'm about to get naked and shag them on the dancefloor.
if we can't read a simple thing like how how welcome is a kiss at a munch, we have no business being on the site, and organisers go to great lengths to make sure such people don't get in. i don't think there is an easy solution to the problem of people just being insensitive invasive twats, no matter what we do?
lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater eh?
neil x x x ;)

9 Apr 2005

Quote by dambuster
I am though beginning to feel that maybe some of the more established members could be a little more aware of what's going on around them.

Thing is, it's sometimes the more established members who are the perpetrators (blowjobs, handjobs, shagging in toilets, male/male kissing and stroking - all established forum members).

9 Apr 2005

Quote by Scandal
... I think we need to make it easier for people to tell others of the problems like this and to make it clearer to offenders what happens to people who behave inappropriately

I've been reading this all night and it's quite interesting although I think it's a bit insular.
So what would happen in RL?
You're in town with a friend and they get groped.
Everyone knows the rules, it's out of order.
I think we should use this opportunity to post what we think Munch protocol should be?
Blue already touched on it scandel just a few posts ago.........a night out in a regular pub, with the type of behaviour that you would see there, problem is some people must go to some right skanky pubs and some people still wanna stretch it to suit their own aims with scant regard for the majority............bit like the neighbour who's attitude to playing loud music is ....fuck everyone else I'm enjoying it.

9 Apr 2005

Quote by neilinleeds
let's keep a little perspective on it! i would no more slip my hand down someones top at a munch than i would doing my saturday shop at tescos. course, if at a munch, someone invites me to do that in a playful way, i won't complain! doesn't mean i'm about to get naked and shag them on the dancefloor.
neil x x x ;)

Damn, really? So I'm not allowed to pin you to the bar either and strip you slowly while kissing and stroking you, then moving my hands.....
redface

I'm gutted now confused

Soorrrrrryyy! biggrin

9 Apr 2005

Quote by VenusnMars
Here's a quote from this thread http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopic/19335.html (sorry Misschief) which took place before sexual harrassment was a concern. The discussion about bounderies etc didn't seem as blurred back then.
Venus!!
Stop yer fretting!
You loved it ...... and certainly everyone else loved it! You had fun and were comfortable. Like you said, if you can read situations then you know when to and when not to etc. then go for it! :twisted:
So stop fretting and continue with your glowing
MissChief - on second pack of tic tacs

I was new enough to worry the next day (also bearing in mind this redface

), but in reality was sensible enough not to fuck it up. I think the majority of decent people would be. The point is, I was a newbie, and the freedom encouraged me to 'glow', and I had a lot of glowing to catch up on! :mrgreen:
Venusxxx
Like I said, if people can read situations and body language there isn't a problem. It's when people you barely know just launch themselves on you that it is awkward. This was harmless flirty kissing and hugging with people you knew that was talked about if I remember rightly? dunno

I also feel for the newer people going to munches - as BrightonGeezer said, how awkward are they going to feel when they see everyone being so familiar and comfortable with each other in a touchy gropey way. It just makes them feel left out ............. Left out to the point where the odd one or two feel they should dive right in like everyone else to fit in maybe? - and not realising that it is offensive and not the norm?
The one time I was groped in a very awkward and humiliating way (not at a munch btw), I don't think for a minute that this guy was deliberately being offensive (although I do think he was pushing his luck). He saw someone doing a similar thing earlier in the eve and presumed that I was fine with it, regardless of me not knowing him like I did the other guy.
There is a difference between the heavy petting in a sexual way and the smack arse, squeezy hug, bluddy thrilled to see you again type greeting. The first leaves me really embarrassed to watch it, even more embarrassed if being put on the receiving end. The second I am likely to do to everyone I know on this site to some degree, whether new people or more established people that I've met before.

9 Apr 2005

Quote by dambuster

If people are concerned about another person attending then whilst is is wise to let the organiser know, one person should not necessarily influence the "banning" of another.
C x

Having nearly fallen foul of this myself, I'm obviously going to be biased in agreeing with Calista.
I also agree with what Alleyson said earlier about "now the subject has been raised . . . "
I am though beginning to feel that maybesome of the more established members could be a little more aware of what's going on around them. I think it's quite easy to spot someone feeling uneasy about something that happening to them, especially from a short distance. How easy would it be for "me" to lean or wander over to "Calista" and quietly ask if she's ok? Or even ask her for a quick word, thereby removing her from the situation. I'm not for one minute suggesting we have marshalls and deputies on duty wandering around the place glaring at people, just perhaps a little more conscious consideration.
And before the wolves start - I use "me" and "Calista" as examples only. I'm usually far too pissed to be of any use to anyone wink

(hugs) Db ... Thankfully TnH and Piercedjon both realised that I was a bit freaked at one point and did exactly that and it was just enough of a distraction to help me out smile

I didn't say anything ot anyone at the time (not even Pete who was furious afterwards redface

) I had no idea who the person was and as other's have pointed out I'm not sure who wouldn't have taken me totally seriously... I had a well split and a very low v necked dress on, however I would never have considered it too low cut. After the event was over it was too late.
I did have a few people I could have trusted enough to tell but why ruin their evening sorting out such a problem.
Strictly speaking though Db .. non-one should need this.
C x

9 Apr 2005

Quote by freckledbird
Thing is, it's sometimes the more established members who are the perpetrators (blowjobs, handjobs, shagging in toilets, male/male kissing and stroking - all established forum members).

Good point, Bev
Guilty as charged.
I'll go back to what Alleyson said - "Now that it's being spoken about openly . . . . . . . ." or something along those lines.
I sincerely hope so.

9 Apr 2005

Quote by davej
... I think we need to make it easier for people to tell others of the problems like this and to make it clearer to offenders what happens to people who behave inappropriately

I've been reading this all night and it's quite interesting although I think it's a bit insular.
So what would happen in RL?
You're in town with a friend and they get groped.
Everyone knows the rules, it's out of order.
I think we should use this opportunity to post what we think Munch protocol should be?
Blue already touched on it scandel just a few posts ago.........a night out in a regular pub, with the type of behaviour that you would see there, problem is some people must go to some right skanky pubs and some people still wanna stretch it to suit their own aims with scant regard for the majority............bit like the neighbour who's attitude to playing loud music is ....fuck everyone else I'm enjoying it.
I'm sure we've agreed that ANY form of non consensual behaviour should result in ejection from the munch and being banned from the site?
Taking that as an agreed, we need to make sure that people report any forms of abuse that they see or experience, and that they don't keep it to themselves and never tell anyone. Looking out for each other would be good here!
Taking all that as agreed, then we can move on to what is ACCEPTABLE CONSENTING behaviour.
I'm assusing that kissing is OK, so is hugging, so is sexy dancing and light CONSENSUAL stroking that is not overtly sexual - all of which you might see in an average pub.
What is not acceptable are things like nudity - tits, dick out etc. Sexual acts, hand jobs, BJs.... etc... sex in bogs - well, yeah it happens in pubs, but it shouldn't really... so that's a no too.
So... what do we do if someone does these things at a munch? Dunno to be honest... ask them to leave maybe?
Here's me trying to summerise all this lot and making little sense!
confused

9 Apr 2005

Quote by dambuster

Thing is, it's sometimes the more established members who are the perpetrators (blowjobs, handjobs, shagging in toilets, male/male kissing and stroking - all established forum members).

Good point, Bev
Guilty as charged.
I'll go back to what Alleyson said - "Now that it's being spoken about openly . . . . . . . ." or something along those lines.
I sincerely hope so.
DB it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.