HC and Dave Darlings,
I'm not very good with those white boxes so I don't remember exactly what you said. But to one of you the TV Licence can't be denied to the government if you decide not to receive BBC. Also there are a still a lot of people not able to receive about half, or more, of BBC transmissions. Call it a licence if you like but it's a tax you can't avoid.
HC (I think), has a good idea for local taxation. In some states in the USA there is something like a sales tax to fund local expenditure. It can be difficult for visitors because you get to the check-out and find your bill is bigger than you thought. No sweat to the locals though because they know about it.
I still say - TV Licence and Council Tax can't be defended. I think local taxation should be like national taxation - based on income.
I've just been to look. I pay a month in income tax and I pay a month in council tax. Now there's no way that can be right.
Mollie
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Old Steam Room stuff
Sex God
Quote by meat2pleaseu
(and if you ever want to invest some of your wealth in a corporate video dave, i'm your man :thumbup: )
Any chances of doing it off book so we can split theVAT.
...davej off to get a pot of paint to spruce up his fruit and veg barrow and buy Wayne a new white coat and boater now that we are ....corporate :smug:
Mod
Quote by maidinheaven
HC and Dave Darlings,
I'm not very good with those white boxes so I don't remember exactly what you said. But to one of you the TV Licence can't be denied to the government if you decide not to receive BBC. Also there are a still a lot of people not able to receive about half, or more, of BBC transmissions. Call it a licence if you like but it's a tax you can't avoid.
You can avoid it. If you cannot receive a BBC signal at all, either by satellite or aerial, then you don't have to pay. They will stil hound you, but you don't have to pay. There is at least one member of this Site who doesn't have a TV set capable of receiving television signals. I believe you also pay if you receive it over the internet.
Mollie
Mal
Sex God
Quote by maidinheaven
HC and Dave Darlings,
I'm not very good with those white boxes so I don't remember exactly what you said. But to one of you the TV Licence can't be denied to the government if you decide not to receive BBC. Also there are a still a lot of people not able to receive about half, or more, of BBC transmissions. Call it a licence if you like but it's a tax you can't avoid.
Mollie
It was me Mollie and the licence is only applicable if you own a television reciever as far as I am aware.
Sex God
Quote by meat2pleaseu
well said that pineapple.
suppose you run a company that makes £1million a year, very nice you say, can afford to pay more tax.
first thing that happens is the tax man arrives and takes a big fat wedge of it, then his mate from the VAT office reminds you that almost 20% of it is his, just behind him is another govt bod pointing out that you employ several staff so need to contribute to their NI payments, add to this the general costs of running and promoting your buisness and suddenly that big fat £1million is much smaller in your bank account, which gets taxed and has charges applied to it (which also get taxed). at this point you havn't actually got paid yourself and as you need to pay for your home, utilitiy bills and everything else- all taxable- you pay yourself a wage, which is taxed and has national insurance deducted.
As your doing so well with your £1million income you realise that your health is vital to the companies future, so you get private medical cover (thus reducing the burden on the NHS) and guess what, its taxed.
so, by this point, you've probably lost a substantial portion of the money you've worked so hard to make and the last thing you need is someone trying to take more of that.
penalising success will fail in the long term, people will either develop a what's the point attitude, move to a different country to become prosperous or simply work round the tax system to remove as much of their income to off-shore locations as they can (the online betting industry have already found this loop all because of the tax benefits)
This country is entering a dangerous area with the constant increase in taxes and charges for services that continue to deteriate, france is currently subject to riots and unrest by people who have just had enough of being pushed and pushed, it will happen here (and is another reason for the introduction of the forthcoming terrorism laws) if things don't change, i know this is going of topic a little but there is a relationship to the increase in the constant increase and introduction of taxes.
could soon be time to emigrate.
(and if you ever want to invest some of your wealth in a corporate video dave, i'm your man :thumbup: )
Don't vote Labour then??
Sex God
Quote by davej
(and if you ever want to invest some of your wealth in a corporate video dave, i'm your man :thumbup: )
Any chances of doing it off book so we can split theVAT.
...davej off to get a pot of paint to spruce up his fruit and veg barrow and buy Wayne a new white coat and boater now that we are ....corporate :smug:
Step into my office some time :uhoh: don't think the VAT man's a swinger :giggle:
I logged out because my partner, Tom, is here. But I'm still aroused in the sense that my blood is boiling a little. There's a fundamental right enshrined in several places. I've just been to look one of them up. But it's been said by several political parties.
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"
Mollie
(who is starting to feel like she wants to be a Gangster's Moll -I'd set him on some of you)
(I wouldn't really. I might disagree with what you say but defend your right to say it)
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"
Mollie
(who is starting to feel like she wants to be a Gangster's Moll -I'd set him on some of you)
(I wouldn't really. I might disagree with what you say but defend your right to say it)
Mod
Quote by Dawn_Mids
Steph said 'fuck' :giggle: :giggle: :giggle:
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: - sneak!! 
Sex God
there's too many posts on council tax to quote or reply directly to, but you could argue council tax is not so much based on the services you use, which as dave says, are probably used disproportionately to an extent by the poorer members of society, but is more a tax on income.
those in larger properties, of higher value, gain more income year on year from their property thanks to rising prices and increasing equity. a house valued at 250 000 right now will quite easily be worth an aditional 25 000 by the end of next year in many parts of the country. that's 25 000 worth of income on your assets. it's a nominal income to be sure. it's not in your pockets and spendable, but it's still income. looking at it that way, i don't believe it's unfair to suggest that that income should be taxed proportionately.
neil x x x ;)
those in larger properties, of higher value, gain more income year on year from their property thanks to rising prices and increasing equity. a house valued at 250 000 right now will quite easily be worth an aditional 25 000 by the end of next year in many parts of the country. that's 25 000 worth of income on your assets. it's a nominal income to be sure. it's not in your pockets and spendable, but it's still income. looking at it that way, i don't believe it's unfair to suggest that that income should be taxed proportionately.
neil x x x ;)
Mod
Quote by neilinleeds
those in larger properties, of higher value, gain more income year on year from their property thanks to rising prices and increasing equity. a house valued at 250 000 right now will quite easily be worth an aditional 25 000 by the end of next year in many parts of the country. that's 25 000 worth of income on your assets. it's a nominal income to be sure. it's not in your pockets and spendable, but it's still income. looking at it that way, i don't believe it's unfair to suggest that that income should be taxed proportionately.
neil x x x ;)
Well, pardon me for investing in bricks and mortar!! Have far do you want to go with this tax? You are now suggesting we get taxed on what our property may be worth? It isn't income, it's an investment. If we had money coming in (called an income), then we can be taxed on it as we have something to pay it from. If we don't have an income coming in, how do we physically pay a tax on it? Where's the money going to come from? We haven't sold the house, so we cannot realise the asset!!
Mal
Quote by neilinleeds
there's too many posts on council tax to quote or reply directly to, but you could argue council tax is not so much based on the services you use, which as dave says, are probably used disproportionately to an extent by the poorer members of society, but is more a tax on income.
those in larger properties, of higher value, gain more income year on year from their property thanks to rising prices and increasing equity. a house valued at 250 000 right now will quite easily be worth an aditional 25 000 by the end of next year in many parts of the country. that's 25 000 worth of income on your assets. it's a nominal income to be sure. it's not in your pockets and spendable, but it's still income. looking at it that way, i don't believe it's unfair to suggest that that income should be taxed proportionately.
neil x x x ;)
Does this imply then that if property prices start to fall (not unkonwn) that housowners should be entitled to caouncil tax rebates?
This is a fantastic debate and someone should send a link to this thread to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. There is a representative cross section of British society in the SH Café and if they want to know what the county thinks they need to eavesdrop on swingers!
I’d like to chuck my two bob’s worth in and tell you the story of two widows, each living alone in a three bedroom end of terrace house. One in a village in Kent, one in a large modern new town. The lady in the new town has a choice of three bus services within a 2 minute walk of her front door. She has a full range of shops for day to day shopping within ten minutes walk and large town centre with everything from John Lewis down just a bus ride away. There is a doctor, Dentist and Pharmacy to hand and one of the bus services passes the local Hospital and library. The streets are brightly lit and although she has no drive there is plenty of on street parking for visitors. Like her counterpart in Kent she has an adequate income made up of state pension, her own pension and the widows portion of her late husbands pension.
The lady in Kent has a bus pass just like her counterpart. The trouble is that there are only two buses in the morning and two in the afternoon she can use it on. There is a village stores which has some fresh produce and there is a paper shop but they are relatively expensive. There is an ASDA less than six miles away but to get there she needs to take two buses, only one of which is covered by her pass. Because the there are so few buses on the timetable and they don’t connect a trip to the supermarket will take up her whole day.
She has poor access to the Doctor, there is no dentist without taking the bus to town, the streets are unlit at night, there is no where to park and the hospital can only be conveniently reached by taxi.
Currently these two ladies are in the same council tax band although they pay different amounts to different local authorities, I know this as the lady in Kent is my neighbour and the new town lady is my Mother. Under Prescott’s latest proposal my neighbour’s council tax band will attract a premium and she will pay more than my Mum. Although she enjoys much less in the way of services she there is a hop garden at the bottom the road and open fields at the top. The new town is classically boring to look at.
This is where the debate began. Council tax and it’s collection is always going to be contentious but this latest flight of fancy by JP seems to assume that pretty surroundings equals wealth and he could not be more wrong.
Ability to pay is a tempting argument, as long as you have a lower ability to pay than those around you. Imagine that you are the best paid among four friends and every time you went out to the pub you had to buy one round it three instead of one round in four. You’d soon look for wealthier friends!!
All pay the same is attractive if you are relatively well paid. It must cost the same to remove the rubbish of a family of four from a small house as it does from a large one, ditto the proportional cost street lighting etc etc. However, these are not negotiable services so some groups will struggle to meet the bill if it was divided in this way.
Flawed as it is the current system of basing the tax on a notional value of the house and making adjustments for occupancy and financial circumstances is probably as fair as you could expect to get.
I’d like to chuck my two bob’s worth in and tell you the story of two widows, each living alone in a three bedroom end of terrace house. One in a village in Kent, one in a large modern new town. The lady in the new town has a choice of three bus services within a 2 minute walk of her front door. She has a full range of shops for day to day shopping within ten minutes walk and large town centre with everything from John Lewis down just a bus ride away. There is a doctor, Dentist and Pharmacy to hand and one of the bus services passes the local Hospital and library. The streets are brightly lit and although she has no drive there is plenty of on street parking for visitors. Like her counterpart in Kent she has an adequate income made up of state pension, her own pension and the widows portion of her late husbands pension.
The lady in Kent has a bus pass just like her counterpart. The trouble is that there are only two buses in the morning and two in the afternoon she can use it on. There is a village stores which has some fresh produce and there is a paper shop but they are relatively expensive. There is an ASDA less than six miles away but to get there she needs to take two buses, only one of which is covered by her pass. Because the there are so few buses on the timetable and they don’t connect a trip to the supermarket will take up her whole day.
She has poor access to the Doctor, there is no dentist without taking the bus to town, the streets are unlit at night, there is no where to park and the hospital can only be conveniently reached by taxi.
Currently these two ladies are in the same council tax band although they pay different amounts to different local authorities, I know this as the lady in Kent is my neighbour and the new town lady is my Mother. Under Prescott’s latest proposal my neighbour’s council tax band will attract a premium and she will pay more than my Mum. Although she enjoys much less in the way of services she there is a hop garden at the bottom the road and open fields at the top. The new town is classically boring to look at.
This is where the debate began. Council tax and it’s collection is always going to be contentious but this latest flight of fancy by JP seems to assume that pretty surroundings equals wealth and he could not be more wrong.
Ability to pay is a tempting argument, as long as you have a lower ability to pay than those around you. Imagine that you are the best paid among four friends and every time you went out to the pub you had to buy one round it three instead of one round in four. You’d soon look for wealthier friends!!
All pay the same is attractive if you are relatively well paid. It must cost the same to remove the rubbish of a family of four from a small house as it does from a large one, ditto the proportional cost street lighting etc etc. However, these are not negotiable services so some groups will struggle to meet the bill if it was divided in this way.
Flawed as it is the current system of basing the tax on a notional value of the house and making adjustments for occupancy and financial circumstances is probably as fair as you could expect to get.
Sex God
Quote by Mal
those in larger properties, of higher value, gain more income year on year from their property thanks to rising prices and increasing equity. a house valued at 250 000 right now will quite easily be worth an aditional 25 000 by the end of next year in many parts of the country. that's 25 000 worth of income on your assets. it's a nominal income to be sure. it's not in your pockets and spendable, but it's still income. looking at it that way, i don't believe it's unfair to suggest that that income should be taxed proportionately.
neil x x x ;)
Well, pardon me for investing in bricks and mortar!! Have far do you want to go with this tax? You are now suggesting we get taxed on what our property may be worth? It isn't income, it's an investment. If we had money coming in (called an income), then we can be taxed on it as we have something to pay it from. If we don't have an income coming in, how do we physically pay a tax on it? Where's the money going to come from? We haven't sold the house, so we cannot realise the asset!!
Mal
it's still a capital gain mal, and all capital gains are taxable. the income is still there, even if it's not a liquid asset. i'm not saying we ramp up the taxes to hit those who've worked hard to invest, just that having a decent spread of bands that are equitable is the right way to go. course that all depends on the govt coming up with something equitable, which i wouldn't necessarily expect from them on current performance, but as a principal it seems to me the fairest thing to do?
and treasurechest, tax would be set according to property values. if values fall, taxation would be adjusted accordingly.
neil x x x ;)
Council Tax is set by local councils to help pay for local services like policing and refuse collection. It applies to all domestic properties, including houses, bungalows, flats, maisonettes, mobile homes or houseboats, whether owned or rented.
Just googled it !
So we live in identical house next door to each other................. we both have our rubbish bin emptied, we both use the library, we both use the street lights when going out to work, we both say good morning to the local bobby, we both park our cars on our drives, we both take our kids to the local park ......................... but I am a milkman and you are a footballer .................... you should pay higher council tax than me ???? Rubbish IMHO.
I believe people on low incomes or state benefits should pay a lower rate of council tax or none at all !
Davej, Shireen, Steve, Mal
Sam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Just googled it !
So we live in identical house next door to each other................. we both have our rubbish bin emptied, we both use the library, we both use the street lights when going out to work, we both say good morning to the local bobby, we both park our cars on our drives, we both take our kids to the local park ......................... but I am a milkman and you are a footballer .................... you should pay higher council tax than me ???? Rubbish IMHO.
I believe people on low incomes or state benefits should pay a lower rate of council tax or none at all !
Davej, Shireen, Steve, Mal
Sam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mod
Quote by neilinleeds
it's still a capital gain mal, and all capital gains are taxable. the income is still there, even if it's not a liquid asset. i'm not saying we ramp up the taxes to hit those who've worked hard to invest, just that having a decent spread of bands that are equitable is the right way to go. course that all depends on the govt coming up with something equitable, which i wouldn't necessarily expect from them on current performance, but as a principal it seems to me the fairest thing to do?
and treasurechest, tax would be set according to property values. if values fall, taxation would be adjusted accordingly.
neil x x x ;)
Taxed on the realisation of that gain is one thing, but not on the presumed gain without having a corresponding income to make that payment from - that is what I'm saying. As for a reduction in property value causing a revaluation downwards of the tax - that would never happen.
Another scenario regarding taxation on the view from your property.
My view is partially obstructed by some trees in a neighbouring garden. These trees do not obstruct the view for my neighbour. All things being equal, do I have a right to a reduction in my 'view tax' because of these trees? If not, do I have the right to demand the trees are felled to make my view as good as my neighbours?
just a fort!!
Mal
Quote by Mal
neil x x x ;)
?
just a fort!!
Mal
An Englishman's home is his castle?
I told you I was no good at those white boxes.
But, yes, whatever our views, I have enjoyed this debate. Getting a bit emotional about it but I've enjoyed it and maybe our politicians should be aware of this.
I emailed my MP about the woman pensioner (I didn't know there was also a man) who was jailed for paying only part of her council tax. I said she wasn't jailed in my name but was jailed in his. I compared it with cautions and community service for thugs and vandals.
I never received a reply. He might not receive my vote.
The Gangster's Moll
Sex God
i'm off for a week or so again, so just to put me last two penneth worth in, this is what i'm on about anyways . . .
the money you've invested in your property? if you'd invested that cash instead in high yield bank accounts, property that was earning you a real cash income through rents or sales, your own business, whatever, and you'd enjoyed the same level of growth as property prices, the income tax you'd have paid on that would more than likely be much more than your council tax. all income, fixed assets, whatever, are taxed as though they were cash, cos they can all be immediately liquidated.
the same principle applies to the house you live in. income is income, and like it or not having a particularly attractive view or a double garage has a bearing on how much income there is. in fact it's because of the drive for a decent view and a nicer kitchen that the boom in prices continues, and it's unlikely to slow down that much as far as i can see? might be some adjustment, but the trend is upwards for a very long time to come. and while it should be treated differently and have lots of safety nets built in cos it's the roof over your head, the general principle that property is a taxable asset remains the same.
most people think it's fair that income tax is levied so that the wealthier pay higher levels of tax, and yet it goes to pay for the same services that all of us have equal access to and generally all use. some people pay more than others for the NHS and education and defence, etc even where they're more likely to use private education and private health care, etc but noone seems to think they should pay the same few thousand a year as everyone else or receive rebates for opting out ((( though there are tax incentives anyways ))) generally taxation based on ability to pay is a principal we all support in a just society? same thing here. council tax is income tax
the money you've invested in your property? if you'd invested that cash instead in high yield bank accounts, property that was earning you a real cash income through rents or sales, your own business, whatever, and you'd enjoyed the same level of growth as property prices, the income tax you'd have paid on that would more than likely be much more than your council tax. all income, fixed assets, whatever, are taxed as though they were cash, cos they can all be immediately liquidated.
the same principle applies to the house you live in. income is income, and like it or not having a particularly attractive view or a double garage has a bearing on how much income there is. in fact it's because of the drive for a decent view and a nicer kitchen that the boom in prices continues, and it's unlikely to slow down that much as far as i can see? might be some adjustment, but the trend is upwards for a very long time to come. and while it should be treated differently and have lots of safety nets built in cos it's the roof over your head, the general principle that property is a taxable asset remains the same.
most people think it's fair that income tax is levied so that the wealthier pay higher levels of tax, and yet it goes to pay for the same services that all of us have equal access to and generally all use. some people pay more than others for the NHS and education and defence, etc even where they're more likely to use private education and private health care, etc but noone seems to think they should pay the same few thousand a year as everyone else or receive rebates for opting out ((( though there are tax incentives anyways ))) generally taxation based on ability to pay is a principal we all support in a just society? same thing here. council tax is income tax
Sex God
1 thing u have not accounted for where can u get a bank account where it will double your money every 8yrs
Quote by neilinleeds
generally taxation based on ability to pay is a principal we all support in a just society? same thing here. council tax is income tax
But council tax is not based on an ability to pay whereas income tax is. There is a presumption with council tax that house value = disposable income, but that is often not the case. Hence pensioners, who's income has dropped dramatically from the income that allowed them to purchase a large house, going to jail over non-payment.
Sex God
Quote by northwest-cpl
generally taxation based on ability to pay is a principal we all support in a just society? same thing here. council tax is income tax
But council tax is not based on an ability to pay whereas income tax is. There is a presumption with council tax that house value = disposable income, but that is often not the case. Hence pensioners, who's income has dropped dramatically from the income that allowed them to purchase a large house, going to jail over non-payment.
and so one of the things higher council taxes should pay for by way of safety nets like rebates is protection for pensioners etc. you build in a rule that says someone of pensionable age has effectively paid in enough tax over the years to benefit from a rebate, which is what we've more or less got. could do with an overhaul there too. tax only makes sense if it provides a long term benefit to those who pay it. you're protected from having to pay high taxes eternally by the safety net you pay into today ((( in theory. we could be doing a hell of a lot more to address issues like that. )))
neil x x x ;)
Quote by neilinleeds
the safety net you pay into today ((( in theory. we could be doing a hell of a lot more to address issues like that. )))
neil x x x ;)
I agree that tax pays for the safety net and without a safety net we have a pretty poor society. However, basing taxation on property value seems a very strange and archaic way of providing the net (as Fred said, bring back the window tax
). Income tax seems a much fairer way of going about it. Quote by neilinleeds
generally taxation based on ability to pay is a principal we all support in a just society? same thing here. council tax is income tax
But council tax is not based on an ability to pay whereas income tax is. There is a presumption with council tax that house value = disposable income, but that is often not the case. Hence pensioners, who's income has dropped dramatically from the income that allowed them to purchase a large house, going to jail over non-payment.
and so one of the things higher council taxes should pay for by way of safety nets like rebates is protection for pensioners etc. you build in a rule that says someone of pensionable age has effectively paid in enough tax over the years to benefit from a rebate, which is what we've more or less got. could do with an overhaul there too. tax only makes sense if it provides a long term benefit to those who pay it. you're protected from having to pay high taxes eternally by the safety net you pay into today ((( in theory. we could be doing a hell of a lot more to address issues like that. )))
neil x x x ;)
Well, I've got a problem with this "protection for pensioners etc". The procedure for claiming this protection is demeaning, degrading and undignified. I am 54 years old. When I applied I was told by a man who could have been my son or even my grandson that I had to call him "Mr Smith" (not his real name). I never claimed the benefit again.
It should not be called a benefit. It should be called something like personal allowance and it should be mine by right. I should not have to demean myself to some little council clerk. (Sorry to any little council clerks).
I don't have to claim my personal allowance for income tax. It is mine by right and by law. To get the same sort of allowance for council tax I have to expose myself to the gaze of those employed by my money.
I've said it before. Counci Tax can not be defended.
Mollie
Quote by maidinheaven
I logged out because my partner, Tom, is here. But I'm still aroused in the sense that my blood is boiling a little. There's a fundamental right enshrined in several places. I've just been to look one of them up. But it's been said by several political parties.
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"
Actually "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." It's a quotation from Karl Marx. I think it's describing a Communist utopia, not a fundamental right - for example you won't find it in the European Declaration of Human Rights.
That's not to say you shouldn't agree with it, but I doubt you'd find any of the 3 mainstream parties willing to sign up to it as a principle.
M.
Quote by maidinheaven
I don't have to claim my personal allowance for income tax. It is mine by right and by law. To get the same sort of allowance for council tax I have to expose myself to the gaze of those employed by my money.
I've said it before. Counci Tax can not be defended.
Mollie
I totally agree. Just put the pension up by the equivalent amount, and let the pensioners chose what they want to spend the money on...
My Army pension is taxed at source.
I am paid approx £6000 pa after serving 22yrs and about just on £2000 is taken as tax.
Because of my Army pension I can not claim any Council Tax reduction = =. I pay the full amount like my next door niebough who gets in the region of £20,000 pa.
Why should a pensioner pay income tax on a pension he has saved for and payed for over his working life?
phredd
oops = I forgot I also get a State Pitance as well =
I am paid approx £6000 pa after serving 22yrs and about just on £2000 is taken as tax.
Because of my Army pension I can not claim any Council Tax reduction = =. I pay the full amount like my next door niebough who gets in the region of £20,000 pa.
Why should a pensioner pay income tax on a pension he has saved for and payed for over his working life?
phredd
oops = I forgot I also get a State Pitance as well =
Sex God
one thing that has been overlooked in the battle of the taxes is the amount of money wasted on pointless projects and stupid ideas & general appalling management. if we ran a company the way governments mismanage countries we'd be be out of buisness very quickly. polititions should be accountable for their actions then maybe we wouldn't need to pay so much tax
Quote by Jon
When I applied I was told by a man who could have been my son or even my grandson that I had to call him "Mr Smith" (not his real name).
If his real name wasn't Mr. Smith, why did he say you had to call him by that name??
I was frightened that the mods might take exception to me identifying him by name. If ever I take it to an appeal or the press or whatever then I will have no hesitation in identifying him. If I knew his name rank and number then I'd give it happily.
What really bugs me is that I know I am entitled to a small amount of council tax benefit. To get it you have to fill in a 36 page form. What I want to say is "I have limited savings and a small income, can I have council tax benefit please". What the council wants to know is, "Last three bank statements, please, how many bathrooms do you have, how many bedrooms, do you have central heating" and it goes on and on.
Then they make you feel you are applying for charity. And because you feel they are in power you accept all sort of shit from that you wouldn't accept anywhere else.
I'll only apply again when the situation really does become intolerable.
I've enjoyed getting this off my chest.
Mollie
