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porn / violence laws

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Quote by seagull69
Seagull I agree with you, it is a concern that any government may be considering banning anything we wish to view for entertainment in our own homes. However without legislation the internet becomes a free for all. I'm not interested in what might turn you or anyone else on, as consenting adults..but I am worried if extreme sexual/violent is accessible by children with parents who don't or can't monitor their online activity.

I know where you are coming from but the state is not interested in whether little johnny is getting off on so wacko porn blimey you can bet your life that half your MPs are down getting a flogging from so mistress. They are using this to see how far they can go to controling what we cannot veiw and read. They Know how powerfull the internet is. You don't have to rely on the government lie machines anymore.
And when it comes to obscene images. As a kid I was brought up on one. It was this guy who was wiped and flogged then they nailed him to a cross and stuck a spear in his side. That really is sick and they showed it to kids smile
hahaha..of course many MP's are hypocrites and pervs themselves lol, but what ever their motivation it doesnt detract from my worry over what kids can freely access on the internet.
I also agree with your Jesus analogy and I made similar remarks on another thread about the suitability of certain literature/images for young children just because it has some historical value.
Just because I am against the control of the internet doesn't mean I approve of violent images. There is loads of stuff on the internet that I disapprove of (Crystal Palace websites for a start smile. )If people want to veiw such images then its up to them. Same as some christian go to church on sunday.
Quote by alspals

hahaha..of course many MP's are hypocrites and pervs themselves lol, but what ever their motivation it doesnt detract from my worry over what kids can freely access on the internet.
I also agree with your Jesus analogy and I made similar remarks on another thread about the suitability of certain literature/images for young children just because it has some historical value.

As a parent myself I understand your concerns but surely it is up to parents to monitor what their children are doing on the internet. If they don't care they probably don't care about other things that their childaren are doing
The protection of children is a laudable objective but are we to ban knives "to protect kids from injury"?
Are we to ban cars because some kids get run over?
Are we to ban libraries because they contain some raunchy literature?
If kids need physical prevention to stop them doing really stupid things I would consider this to be because their parents had failed to set a responsible example and raise their kids properly. It's all too easy to worry about how poor little Johnny might be accessing allsorts of filth, whilst you are lying on the sofa watching Eastenders, fag in one hand beer in the other. Sometimes its hard to take responsibility and spend time with kids and actually teach them responsible values and be willing to talk to them about a range of subjects.
It's a bit provocative but my guess is that more kids are "damaged" from parental indifference, neglect or abdication of responsibility, than from all the porn on the web and "menace perverts" combined.
Quote by bucksfuncpl
The protection of children is a laudable objective but are we to ban knives "to protect kids from injury"?
Are we to ban cars because some kids get run over?
Are we to ban libraries because they contain some raunchy literature?
If kids need physical prevention to stop them doing really stupid things I would consider this to be because their parents had failed to set a responsible example and raise their kids properly. It's all too easy to worry about how poor little Johnny might be accessing allsorts of filth, whilst you are lying on the sofa watching Eastenders, fag in one hand beer in the other. Sometimes its hard to take responsibility and spend time with kids and actually teach them responsible values and be willing to talk to them about a range of subjects.
It's a bit provocative but my guess is that more kids are "damaged" from parental indifference, neglect or abdication of responsibility, than from all the porn on the web and "menace perverts" combined.

Oi have you been spying on me lol ............
I agree with everything you say :thumbup:
Quote by seagull69
As a parent myself I understand your concerns but surely it is up to parents to monitor what their children are doing on the internet. If they don't care they probably don't care about other things that their childaren are doing

..totally agree Seagull..but some parents are bloody dipsticks and invariably their delinquent offspring cause problems for other people in the community rather than just them selves.
Al
Ps..I'm off now before me & Bucksfun kick off again lol :lol:
Quote by bucksfuncpl
The protection of children is a laudable objective but are we to ban knives "to protect kids from injury"?
Are we to ban cars because some kids get run over?
Are we to ban libraries because they contain some raunchy literature?
If kids need physical prevention to stop them doing really stupid things I would consider this to be because their parents had failed to set a responsible example and raise their kids properly. It's all too easy to worry about how poor little Johnny might be accessing allsorts of filth, whilst you are lying on the sofa watching Eastenders, fag in one hand beer in the other. Sometimes its hard to take responsibility and spend time with kids and actually teach them responsible values and be willing to talk to them about a range of subjects.
It's a bit provocative but my guess is that more kids are "damaged" from parental indifference, neglect or abdication of responsibility, than from all the porn on the web and "menace perverts" combined.

oh I so love jousting with you BFC duel , where have you been all day?! biggrin
I agree with most of what you and Seagull say on this issue, but you also acknowledge that there are parents out there who don't monitor or care what their children are watching. Please don't think that I'm objecting to the more commercial aspects of internet porn..the sort of extreme images that worry me would probably affect the development and behaviour of children (sadly I don't have any evidence to support this, but it just seems like common sense). The worst thing to contemplate would be a generation of children growing up believing it was ok to degrade and abuse people sexually (without their consent) and desensitised to the needs of others.
Quote by seagull69
Just because I am against the control of the internet doesn't mean I approve of violent images. There is loads of stuff on the internet that I disapprove of (Crystal Palace websites for a start smile. )

Well personally I am in favour of control on this particular issue. If it is unlawful (and it is) to depict or to view a criminal act involving the abuse of a non-consenting person for the purpose of entertainment or sexual gratification, then the market for that abuse suffers and fewer people are abused. I believe this principle should apply to depictions of sexually motivated violence for two reasons. Firstly, it cannot be known whether the persons being abused have consented. Indeed, with a strong enough market there may not be enough willing volunteers to satisfy demand. Secondly, how confident are you that someone who has consented to be physically harmed is mentally competent to give that consent? I personally do not believe it is possible for a psychologically well person to consent to being actually damaged. I have no scientific basis for that belief, it's just my personal opinion which may well be wrong, but my instincts tell me that sane people do not go around deliberately damaging each other.
Quote by alspals
The protection of children is a laudable objective but are we to ban knives "to protect kids from injury"?
Are we to ban cars because some kids get run over?
Are we to ban libraries because they contain some raunchy literature?
If kids need physical prevention to stop them doing really stupid things I would consider this to be because their parents had failed to set a responsible example and raise their kids properly. It's all too easy to worry about how poor little Johnny might be accessing allsorts of filth, whilst you are lying on the sofa watching Eastenders, fag in one hand beer in the other. Sometimes its hard to take responsibility and spend time with kids and actually teach them responsible values and be willing to talk to them about a range of subjects.
It's a bit provocative but my guess is that more kids are "damaged" from parental indifference, neglect or abdication of responsibility, than from all the porn on the web and "menace perverts" combined.

oh I so love jousting with you BFC duel , where have you been all day?! biggrin
I agree with most of what you and Seagull say on this issue, but you also acknowledge that there are parents out there who don't monitor or care what their children are watching. Please don't think that I'm objecting to the more commercial aspects of internet porn..the sort of extreme images that worry me would probably affect the development and behaviour of children (sadly I don't have any evidence to support this, but it just seems like common sense). The worst thing to contemplate would be a generation of children growing up believing it was ok to degrade and abuse people sexually (without their consent) and desensitised to the needs of others.
Well would hate to disappoint you Als so here goes:-
Do you really think that kids whose parents abrogate all responsibility and let them run amok are really going to grow up as well adjusted socially responsible adults in any case? I would have thought that kids from a loving caring family who do take responsibility for their offspring will be likely to grow up as normal adults irrespective of the material they have been "exposed" to as kids. On the other hand those who have been neglected and basically allowed to do anything they like stand little chance later in life and its not stumbling across some objectionable porn that will have caused their difficultes.
In respect of Ice Pies comment, as has been previously mentioned the outline of the legislation might look innocuous but it has no detail yet. What is to be defined as "extreme" is not yet known. Quite aside from any other objection the government should not be able to write a "blank cheque" like this. Putting it simply if you were asked the question "Do you agree that dangerous perverts should be locked up?" most people will say yes. The more thoughtful amongst us would first ask "What exactly is a dangerous pervert then?".
Quote by bucksfuncpl
Quite aside from any other objection the government should not be able to write a "blank cheque" like this.

Have they though? I've only read a brief BBC article, which implied the whole idea has gone no further than the discussion stage so far. Any legislation that may follow will, I hope, be quite specific and probably somewhat along the lines of the legal definition of GBH.
Putting it simply if you were asked the question "Do you agree that dangerous perverts should be locked up?" most people will say yes. The more thoughtful amongst us would first ask "What exactly is a dangerous pervert then?".

Couldn't agree more, and my negative comments certainly weren't directed at a broad genre. It's a bit unfortunate that the term "BDSM" has become a blanket expression covering everthing from silk scarf blindfolds to testicles in a vice, and I would hope that any government intervention would be far less generalised.
Quote by alspals
...good spot Bigslut, but it's worth noting that all films released in the UK are classified in some way and this one theoretically should not be viewed by under 18's. The problem is that images like these (& worse) on the internet are not regulated and can be accessed easily by minors, I guess that's one of the reasons the state is considering getting involved in internet censorship.

Well most people think that everything we see is censored ....but in fact the same programme that was rated at 18 was shown on the television after the watershed
the BBC or any independent broadcaster is not restrained by the British Board of Film censors they are constrained by the IBA it would be impractical for a broadcaster to obtain a British Board of Film censors Certificate on every item transmitted
it would delay the news for a start by several weeks in fact most broadcasters are not restrained but if they do break the guidelines they can be penalised after the event
so we are not protected on what we seen television and there should be no censorship on the net in fact the freedom to express one's views are parts of the Human Rights Act that were always hearing about and how we should never allow our human right to be interfered with censorship is doing it all the time....
Quote by Ice Pie
Just because I am against the control of the internet doesn't mean I approve of violent images. There is loads of stuff on the internet that I disapprove of (Crystal Palace websites for a start smile. )

Well personally I am in favour of control on this particular issue. If it is unlawful (and it is) to depict or to view a criminal act involving the abuse of a non-consenting person for the purpose of entertainment or sexual gratification, then the market for that abuse suffers and fewer people are abused. I believe this principle should apply to depictions of sexually motivated violence for two reasons. Firstly, it cannot be known whether the persons being abused have consented. Indeed, with a strong enough market there may not be enough willing volunteers to satisfy demand. Secondly, how confident are you that someone who has consented to be physically harmed is mentally competent to give that consent? I personally do not believe it is possible for a psychologically well person to consent to being actually damaged. I have no scientific basis for that belief, it's just my personal opinion which may well be wrong, but my instincts tell me that sane people do not go around deliberately damaging each other.
There are laws that make it illegal to be violent to an individual without their consent. If they chose to video tape it and then put it on the net. Then surely the old bill can investigate it.
Quote by seagull69
There are laws that make it illegal to be violent to an individual without their consent. If they chose to video tape it and then put it on the net. Then surely the old bill can investigate it.
True, but as I said, by making it unlawful to put it on the net, or to view it once it's there, the market for those images is curtailed, hence fewer people are exploited to satisfy it. As it stands, I could legally download a snuff movie if I so choose, and what I'm saying is, if it were against the law for me to do that, fewer snuff movies would be made. That is why they made it illegal to look at kiddie porn and I see this as following the same very sound logic.
You know, there have been so many wise words spoken on this topic, but I am concerned about some that have been critical of those that have attempted to take a measured approach. The one that castigates feminists, for instance, really irritated me - since I would consider myself one. I have worked with kids who've been sexually abused and a common feature is the use of porn (both adult and child) in the abuse. there's no getting away from it. Yes, it's about those individuals who do this, but there is a wider issue we cannot get away from. That's to do with the way in which porn is distributed and how children are encouraged to see it as legitimate. The internet has a lot to answer for. Children can NOT be willing sexual partners/actors, but abusers make them feel that this is so.
Human rights is an issue for consenting adults and quite rightly, our predeliction for some kinky stuff should be protected. But it worries me when people confuse this with abuse. I know it is a fine line at times (not with kids tho - that is clear for me), but I have seen pictures of women who are clearly in pain and can't possibly be enjoying the bondage/whipping/torture etc. They are most likely to be women who have been brought from abroad to service the porn industry in this country.
Future legislation needs to address the seedier side of the porn industry that involves abuse of both adults and children. We need to make our views known and not regard this consultation as a threat.
I don't think we would lose our sense of freedom if the internet became more controlled. Its no different from having a highway code.
It makes sense to control extreme ideas and images. Technically its easy to prevent a server hosting stuff. All links get disconnected and its useless.
Its legislation that would allow this. I think the legislation would be used responsibly.
..well said Walnut, Duncan & Ice..
What I would say to BFC, Seagull and Bigslut is...if you see don't approve of some form of internet censorship in respect of violent sexual images and ...round up your kids this morning and sit them down to a couple of hours a day of watching this stuff.. because as things stand now that's what they're able to do. With the internet, there is no watershed, pre programme warning of graphic/violent images to follow or age limit discrimination of any kind. Children wouldn't even have to be particularly resourceful to fall on it by 'accident', so effectively, very young, unsupervised kids can see this stuff. :shock:
As I keep saying..in principle, I disagree with censorship, because historically only the people (adults) with an interest in whatever it was that turned them on would access or be in a position to, the pornography that they need. The internet is a new phenomenon and changes all that, at the touch of a button.
Quote by alspals
..well said Walnut, Duncan & Ice..
What I would say to BFC, Seagull and Bigslut is...if you see don't approve of some form of internet censorship in respect of violent sexual images and ...round up your kids this morning and sit them down to a couple of hours a day of watching this stuff.. because as things stand now that's what they're able to do. With the internet, there is no watershed, pre programme warning of graphic/violent images to follow or age limit discrimination of any kind. Children wouldn't even have to be particularly resourceful to fall on it by 'accident', so effectively, very young, unsupervised kids can see this stuff. :shock:
As I keep saying..in principle, I disagree with censorship, because historically only the people (adults) with an interest in whatever it was that turned them on would access or be in a position to, the pornography that they need. The internet is a new phenomenon and changes all that, at the touch of a button.

Hmmm think your exagerating a bit here. Firstly you have to search for the site using a search engine. Then I think you would need a credit card to view the images. Don't see how very young children could do that. dunno
Stumbling on it by accident. I think that is what the paedos say in court
Quote by duncanlondon
I don't think we would lose our sense of freedom if the internet became more controlled. Its no different from having a highway code.
It makes sense to control extreme ideas and images. Technically its easy to prevent a server hosting stuff. All links get disconnected and its useless.
Its legislation that would allow this. I think the legislation would be used responsibly.

And just what are extreme ideas dunno This backs up my argument you start on one thing. Then whats next SH rolleyes
Quote by Ice Pie
There are laws that make it illegal to be violent to an individual without their consent. If they chose to video tape it and then put it on the net. Then surely the old bill can investigate it.
True, but as I said, by making it unlawful to put it on the net, or to view it once it's there, the market for those images is curtailed, hence fewer people are exploited to satisfy it. As it stands, I could legally download a snuff movie if I so choose, and what I'm saying is, if it were against the law for me to do that, fewer snuff movies would be made. That is why they made it illegal to look at kiddie porn and I see this as following the same very sound logic.
What about the illegal drugs industry. Thats not on the net but the market is still there. Just because its not on the net dosn't make the problem go away. To be honest we have to look at our society and change it for these terrible things to disappear
Quote by seagull69
What about the illegal drugs industry.

What about it? We're talking about images, and as far as I'm aware, there isn't a market for images of illegal drugs on the net.
Quote by alspals
..well said Walnut, Duncan & Ice..
What I would say to BFC, Seagull and Bigslut is...if you see don't approve of some form of Internet censorship in respect of violent sexual images and ...round up your kids this morning and sit them down to a couple of hours a day of watching this stuff.. because as things stand now that's what they're able to do. With the Internet, there is no watershed, pre programme warning of graphic/violent images to follow or age limit discrimination of any kind. Children wouldn't even have to be particularly resourceful to fall on it by 'accident', so effectively, very young, unsupervised kids can see this stuff. :shock:
As I keep saying..in principle, I disagree with censorship, because historically only the people (adults) with an interest in whatever it was that turned them on would access or be in a position to, the pornography that they need. The Internet is a new phenomenon and changes all that, at the touch of a button.

It could be argued that extreme images are much more difficult to access now than they were say 10 years ago as thee Internet has become more commercialised, the difference is just that more people are connected. 10 to 15 years ago a very wide variety of extreme images were available free of charge in unregulated fora known as newsgroups. Newsgroups used to be a fundamental part of the Internet, but seem to have died off as a result of spam, the growth of HTML software forum tools (such as the one used to build this forum) and legal regulation. I am not saying the "death" of newsgroups is a bad thing only highlighting that in my opinion such extreme material is actually harder to access now than it was previously, and there is less chance of such material being accessed "accidentally" (e.g. it was not an uncommon occurrence to find very extreme material cross posted in the wrong newsgroups).
Most image/video based websites are now highly commercial, to access them requires a credit card etc. I would assume this applies even more to the most extreme content. The real effective danger of kids accidentally stumbling upon large quantities of material is I believe highly exaggerated and from my recollection of the consultation document, even the government did not make a huge noise about the "need to protect minors". I believe that this particular censorship agenda is driven by:-
a) A genuine belief amongst those proposing the new laws that this will protect society (even though no research supports it "we know best").
b) A desire to test the publics appetite for censorship online, I would be willing to bet a large amount that if this law "succeeds" censorship of legitimate news sources (e.g. Al Jazeera) might follow shortly afterwards. What is next making it an offence to say something no matter how objectionable? (It would appear that legislation is already being planned to make it a crime to say "The recent London Bombings were an act of struggle against oppression") - IMHO if the public value free speech they should protect it in all it's forms, even when sometimes the result is that people use it for purposes the majority would find objectionable.
c) A feeling that "people shouldn't be doing this kind of stuff" (and by that I mean less extreme activities such as BDSM) by those who wish to force their moral agenda upon others (Blair has never been shy to play upon his religious beliefs).
d) The normal hysterical cry of "Won't someone PLEASE think of the children" (any Simpson's fans here ;) )
In short the "child protection" angle is a strong card to play to win public support for a measure which is unlikely to be opposed by all but the most staunch civil libertarians. As I mentioned in my post above though if everything potentially harmful to children was banned to adults also, what sort of world would we live in? It is down to the parents to police little Johnny's use of the Internet IMHO rather than for the police to get involved in other peoples lives. One excuse of poor parents is that "The kid's know more about the Internet than me", well surely if a medium is THAT dangerous, then parents have an obligation to learn how to use it effectively and look a ways they can protect their kids from harm.
What I would say to Alspals is that just because you cannot control your kids internet behaviour (either by physically restricting access, or by creating an effective climate of right and wrong within your household), why should MY freedom be restricted. I did not choose to have your kids, so why should I be "punished" for your inability to control them?
Ther are laws that make it illegal to be violent to someone WITH their consent, in fact if any injury is done to a person even with their consent, that is illegal. So, if you have a video of that act (illegal act) then watching it must also be illegal.
As for the internet, when my kids were small they had access only to the "under 18" stuff...the fact that kids can access porn on the internet speaks volumes about both their parents non-computer knowledge and the industry itself.
Porn, in itself, doesn't predetermine that kids are going to be either assaulted, or be assaulters. The fact that many paedophiles USE porn in their illegal activities is to "show" the child that "normal" people do it....ie: porn is a tool in their trade.
But you've got to accept that the internet HAS to be censored. If not by laws making it illegal to view porn over it, then by actively using the hardware facilities of the servers (etc) to ban anyone serving the need. Of course, then you would need people to decide which was to be banned, or maybe not. Any form of nudity featuring sexual activity could be banned straight away,. and then the wearing of clothes by people that may incite others to sexual gratification could also be banned.
While we're on the subject, we could also ban other unatural activites, like any gay activities or leanings could be banned (gay sex doesn't lead to procreation of the species, so it must be unatural)
I'm sure that any public servant could think of other things to ban....like any reference to their high salaries, pensions and unending sick leave.......etc
Quote by Ice Pie
What about the illegal drugs industry.

What about it? We're talking about images, and as far as I'm aware, there isn't a market for images of illegal drugs on the net.
I was referring to your comment that you believe that if it was illegal to download a snuff movie from the net the supply would dry up. I used the drugs industry as an example of supply and demand.
By the way there are no such thing as snuff movies. Except those made by the MOD and shown on the news
Quote by seagull69
What about the illegal drugs industry.

What about it? We're talking about images, and as far as I'm aware, there isn't a market for images of illegal drugs on the net.
I was referring to your comment that you believe that if it was illegal to download a snuff movie from the net the supply would dry up.
No, what I said was if it was illegal to view them the demand would be reduced.
But anyway, if you think it's a valid analogy, tell me if you seriously think trading illegal drugs on the net would not make it an even more serious problem than it is?
By the way there are no such thing as snuff movies. Except those made by the MOD and shown on the news

Given that I have seen one, I needn't spend any time on this comment.
Have a nice day.
Quote by Ice Pie
What about the illegal drugs industry.

What about it? We're talking about images, and as far as I'm aware, there isn't a market for images of illegal drugs on the net.
I was referring to your comment that you believe that if it was illegal to download a snuff movie from the net the supply would dry up.
No, what I said was if it was illegal to view them the demand would be reduced.
But anyway, if you think it's a valid analogy, tell me if you seriously think trading illegal drugs on the net would not make it an even more serious problem than it is?
By the way there are no such thing as snuff movies. Except those made by the MOD and shown on the news

Given that I have seen one, I needn't spend any time on this comment.
Have a nice day.
Taking the trading of drugs on the net. Until recently it was legal to sell magic mushrooms over the net. This did not increase the use of magic mushrooms did it. If people wanted to buy drugs they go and get them what ever way they can. I don't think having them on the internet would make much difference. As I said it is down to supply an demand.
I don't doubt you may have seen a snuff movie. Its just that most research says that it is an urban legend.
Quote by seagull69
Taking the trading of drugs on the net. Until recently it was legal to sell magic mushrooms over the net. This did not increase the use of magic mushrooms did it. If people wanted to buy drugs they go and get them what ever way they can. I don't think having them on the internet would make much difference. As I said it is down to supply an demand.

And ease of supply increases awareness and increased awareness increases demand, as any former internet magic mushroom seller will tell you. Things aren't just bought by people who go specifically looking for them - if that were the case there'd be no spam advertising.
I don't doubt you may have seen a snuff movie.

Despite the fact that according to you they don't exist?
Anyway, enough of the strawman tactics, you've diverted me from the topic three times now and your analogies haven't convinced me, so we'll agree to differ. smile
Quote by bucksfuncpl
What I would say to Alspals is that just because you cannot control your kids internet behaviour (either by physically restricting access, or by creating an effective climate of right and wrong within your household), why should MY freedom be restricted. I did not choose to have your kids, so why should I be "punished" for your inability to control them?

...forgive me for selectively editing your post, but this last paragraph is what I hope illustrates my point..of course you should not be 'punished' for my inability to control my kids..but if I fail to be a responsible parent then it is you and the wider community who have to deal with the consequences. As an irresponsible parent why would I care?
Quote by alspals

What I would say to Alspals is that just because you cannot control your kids internet behaviour (either by physically restricting access, or by creating an effective climate of right and wrong within your household), why should MY freedom be restricted. I did not choose to have your kids, so why should I be "punished" for your inability to control them?

...forgive me for selectively editing your post, but this last paragraph is what I hope illustrates my point..of course you should not be 'punished' for my inability to control my kids..but if I fail to be a responsible parent then it is you and the wider community who have to deal with the consequences. As an irresponsible parent why would I care?
Alspals
Haven't we been around this before somewhere around halfway through page 4. If parents abdicate responsibility like this it is virtually certain that the kids (and wider society) will suffer far more as a result than if kids somehow manage to "accidentally" find the content", "accidentally" note some credit card details and then "accidentally" use those credit card details to pay for access to some porn site.
There is a deep irony in that in the UK, you need a licence to own a TV, you need a licence to own a gun, you need a licence to drive a car (and be qualified to do so), you need a licence to own a dog (or at least you did) and yet any idiot can have kids and through neglect and general indifference wreak far greater havoc upon society than many "criminals" committing offences which are essentially victimless. Personally if we are going to have governments playinig the game of social control, I would rather that they concentrated efforts on preventing the irresponsible and idiotic from foisting their dodgy genes on future generations. This is at least as valid an argument as restricting the individual liberty of everyone else to minimise the impact of the consequences of irresponsible or ineffective parenting.
Quote by bucksfuncpl

What I would say to Alspals is that just because you cannot control your kids internet behaviour (either by physically restricting access, or by creating an effective climate of right and wrong within your household), why should MY freedom be restricted. I did not choose to have your kids, so why should I be "punished" for your inability to control them?

...forgive me for selectively editing your post, but this last paragraph is what I hope illustrates my point..of course you should not be 'punished' for my inability to control my kids..but if I fail to be a responsible parent then it is you and the wider community who have to deal with the consequences. As an irresponsible parent why would I care?
Alspals
Haven't we been around this before somewhere around halfway through page 4. If parents abdicate responsibility like this it is virtually certain that the kids (and wider society) will suffer far more as a result than if kids somehow manage to "accidentally" find the content", "accidentally" note some credit card details and then "accidentally" use those credit card details to pay for access to some porn site.
There is a deep irony in that in the UK, you need a licence to own a TV, you need a licence to own a gun, you need a licence to drive a car (and be qualified to do so), you need a licence to own a dog (or at least you did) and yet any idiot can have kids and through neglect and general indifference wreak far greater havoc upon society than many "criminals" committing offences which are essentially victimless. Personally if we are going to have governments playinig the game of social control, I would rather that they concentrated efforts on preventing the irresponsible and idiotic from foisting their dodgy genes on future generations. This is at least as valid an argument as restricting the individual liberty of everyone else to minimise the impact of the consequences of irresponsible or ineffective parenting.
..and it seems BFC to be a circular argument to which there are no conclusive answers. To be honest I am one of those people who would always defend your right to personal freedom and self expression, but on the other hand I have to confess to there being a failure in my own ideology when those freedoms compromise the safe, natural development of our young. It's doing my head in! banghead
We are somewhat getting getting off the subject
the Bill is to stop violent images associated we sexual acts and for some reason they have thrown in necrophilia for good measure
but there does not seem to be any Lobley to stop violent images
the point is it only when its associated with sex and that the bit that I object to
as with my previous examples the violent images and acts seemed to be perfectly acceptable but the objection comes when it involves sex
as much as I sympathise with the victims who have been attacked and sexual violence has been used towards them the perpetrators of such crimes have to come up with some excuse what drove them to such extreme violence
well what better excuse than to say it was pornography that drove them to it because it's just about the only argument that they can come up which is not their fault and makes it the fault of the society that allows such material to be viewed
this makes it the perfect excuse it's not their fault they've been the victims of these images.... what a load of bollocks and as usual everybody has to suffer for the sake of a few... rolleyes