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Should these people be sacked?

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Quote by staffcple

It is both from the heart and the head, and nothing will convince me this artical is inaccurate in any way.

There's the problem Kent,
The facts contained within may not be inaccurate, however her additions to those facts, her opinions, her emotions are agenda led. They will fit around her editors wishes, the papers political standpoint and her desire to sell more copy.
I see this as society's responsibility to solve, in fact somewhere down the line society is to blame, we allow these things to happen, we make this behaviour if not acceptable then accepted, we allow ourselves to be sheep, fit only for paying tax to our masters, kept in line with broken and empty promises, worrying more where our next HD TV or shiny car is coming from, rather than whether that child we see with a bump on the head, which the parent says was an accident is in fact being savaged.
So Kent, two questions,
Do you plan to fall on your sword, as part of society, you did nothing to stop this happening, you share some of the blame, as do I, as does the woman who wrote the article, as does everyone. Or are you going to wring your hands, talk about how sick and evil it all is whilst doing nothing to help.
Or.....
Are you going to get yourself into the front lines of child protection, work to change a system you obviously feel is failing, save the children, take the abuse, offer yourself up as a sacrificial lamb when the inevitable happens, no matter the true facts behind the stories.
Difficult choice isn't it?
That is one point which is not true. The artical was written by somebody who lets nobody influence her views...that is a fact.
Your first question.... How as somebody who has nothing at all to do with this case be accountable in anyway? I am a printer not a social worker, or child protection officer. How can I or the journanlist be held responsible? That is a silly arguement with no substance at all.
Your second question.... No I am not going to get into social care, or child care. That is my choice in life. The social workers took the choice to take that line of work, and in this case they failed that child, and must and will face the consequences of their inability to do their jobs.
When somebody CHOOSES to take that course of work, they take the money, so when things go wrong, if that is that persons fault, then sacrificial lamb they should become. If you cannot do the job you have been trained to do, after you have banked your money, then either get out or face the sack. I am sick and tired of seeing people in all walks of life, not being capable of doing the job they are paid to do.
If these people are found to be guilty of these things and are sacked, will your attitude be different? Or will you still think they are " lambs to the slaughter "?
How on the evidence of the child minder and the social worker who has now been gagged from talking, I wonder why? can your opinions still be how they are? For me it is very clear cut here....a child dies in the most horrific of circumstances, he was under the care of social services, sixty visits and still noticed nothing. If anybody cannot see this child was failed by the very people who were supposed to be there to protect him, then I am at a loss to say anything else.
I will wait for these people to be sacked and I will not shed a tear for them, and will accept peoples attitudes to be different when the real facts are proved.
These of course are my opinions and if I am proved to be wrong I will of course appologise in this forum...will others if they are wrong too?
Also Staff your way too good on the SH quiz....Can you give me any tips to be a bit quicker? lol
Quote by kentswingers777
That is one point which is not true. The artical was written by somebody who lets nobody influence her views...that is a fact.

........... and from someone who has dealt with Carole Malone on a professional basis, she is as opinionated and has her own agenda as much if not more than any person who I have ever has the misfortune to come across...
I wouldn't use her articles for fish and chip paper......
mad :x :x
I have written more than one post in the steam room about that woman.......
back to topic.... and just a thought..... just a quick thought, for every case like this that goes oh so tragically wrong, how many do you think they get right and those never make the papers?
I am not trying to excuse them at all..... and like we have said no one is infallible, and yes you tend to learn more from the mistakes than from the sucesses....but I don't see where comments like "fuck up and you get fucked up" help...dunno
Kent,
A fact eh? So she will print no matter what her editor thinks, no matter what the higher agenda and no matter what side of the political spectrum the paper sits on. Your a fan of the Daily Mail yes? Ever seen an article or an editorial telling us how good for the country immigration is? How hoodies helped an old lady cross the road? How travellers are really not all that bad? If not, why not?
Do you honestly believe that is how the press work?
If It doesn't fit with the papers agenda, it does not get printed.
As for the rest of it, It's really quite simple,
All of us in some way bear responsibility for these things when they happen, we shape society through our choices, our votes decide who governs us, our passive acceptance of the status quo means nothing will ever change, until we want it to. Every single time, we hear, "never again" "sorry" "failings by individuals". Then the fury dies down, people move on to the things more important to them, the new TV, the holiday, the car, basically their own lives. When that happens all of the promised action quietly slips away, the funding does not happen, the system overhauls are shelved because they cost too much, it's all smoke and mirrors designed to allow you to sleep quietly thinking you've had your say and been listend to.
If anyone is really that worried about these things, what do you think they do Kent?
Do they spend their time writing about it taking apart every case using their own agendas, or do you think they perhaps become social workers, so they can do something about it at the sharp end. If you honestly believe that these people see social work as a wage packet, knowing the associated abuse, problems, emotional strain and knowledge that every decision will be looked at afterwards with hindsight, then i feel truly sorry for you.
Some jobs are not just about money Kent, like it or not, believe it or not, some do it because they do care, some do it because they are able to do it. Me personally, I could not do it, I do not think my emotional being would allow me to deal with damaged children on a daily basis, but the very last thing you would ever hear me do is knock those who do the job without any evidence they have actually personally failed in their duties.
As for the quiz, fast fingers and a fast mind.
wink
If this was about social workers then the discussion would be far too narrow.
This to me is about living in a street, a house, a flat etc where we have lost the knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors of our neighbours. Social workers are not too blame as they are part of the same world and the rationale for 'Every child Matters' was to try and get services, public, voluntary and private working together on prevention as blaming once it happens is futile as its happened. Between 2/3 child die every day through child abuse. Social workers spend 70% of their time on paperwork. Police cannot intervene unless they have just cause.
I for one have found the whole story very disturbing, not because I blame anyone but because I dont have any idea if in my community people are struggling to cope.
None of us should sit here in blame mode as that in itself wont make a blind bit of difference. May be we should all just care a little more about our immediate family and community in some way that could help prevent tragedy in the future.
If once the investigation has been done and blame is attributed, that wont make it better for the other children at risk ... it has made me think what i can do but as yet I have no answers.
^^^^^ worship :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: ^^^^^
For me the evidence is quite clearly there. The social worker that blew the whistle came up against her superiors who, paid her off and got rid of her. Probably the same people who went to the high court to " gag " her from talking. Is that not the case?

If they have nothing to hide then why gag her? dunno
I have had first hand experince of how child protection works, I am not going into further details but... I saw the way they worked. The lies the head of child protection told in the child protection case. Mrs777 saw it too. Blatant lies to cover up her own failings, and she was the head of that dept. I complained but they closed ranks big time to protect their own.
For me it was a happy ending but for others it may not be. I really want to know why that social worker was gagged and what evidence she holds on them, for them to now be running scared. No doubt we will find ...you have not answered my question as to will your attitude be different if they are all found to be guilty in the death of this child?
Your still too quick on that quiz, even with a fast mind and hands. lol
Quote by staffcple
Do you know what?
If proven to be the case my comments and thoughts may very well change significantly.
As I don't appear to be making any calls for a witch hunt before I am in possession of anything like the full facts, I don't have to answer that question.

From one of my post's on Friday. wink
I will wait till the evidence comes out as many a wrong person has been convicted in a media trail.
Quote by staffcple
Do you know what?
If proven to be the case my comments and thoughts may very well change significantly.
As I don't appear to be making any calls for a witch hunt before I am in possession of anything like the full facts, I don't have to answer that question.

From one of my post's on Friday. wink
Sorry Staff my error. Make note......really need to remember what people write, to stop myself from looking a pratt. lol
Quote by Your article
Mr Davies said today: “Hewitt bounced us onto the Department for Education and Skills... the DES then advised us to write to the Commission for Social Care Inspection, whom we had written to on the same day we had written to Hewitt, copying in the letter to Hewitt and the relevant material.

So where does the ultimate blame lie then?
The social workers involved at the sharp end? The minister, the DES or the CSCI?
Front line social worker negligence or system failure, which are two utterly different things. Perhaps it's not as cut and dried as the media witch hunt would have you think?
. ....snip...Between 2/3 child die every day through child abuse.
Are you sure about that number? If so, then that is a staggering statistic......and one I'm sure the press would have a field day with.
Yep as far as stats go - Unicef 2003 report on UK stats. I am sure DCSF website or NSPCA would have more up to date stats.
Quote by curiousguy49
. ....snip...Between 2/3 child die every day through child abuse.
Are you sure about that number? If so, then that is a staggering statistic......and one I'm sure the press would have a field day with.

Yes that is a true figure but....that figure also takes into account parents who kill their children when they take their own lives. Most of those children are NOT under any social protection order either.
Roughly one child a day dies that way.... I read that somewhere only recently....tragic.
Quote by kentswingers777
. ....snip...Between 2/3 child die every day through child abuse.
Are you sure about that number? If so, then that is a staggering statistic......and one I'm sure the press would have a field day with.

Yes that is a true figure but....that figure also takes into account parents who kill their children when they take their own lives. Most of those children are NOT under any social protection order either.
Roughly one child a day dies that way.... I read that somewhere only recently....tragic.
A UNICEF report in 2003 suggested that child deaths from abuse is more than twice as high as official records suggest...and they stated that 2 children a week under 15 died as a result of child abuse.

I'm not trying to be pendantic and argue about numbers, just that 2/3 per day is a quite staggering statistic.
Quote by kentswingers777
. ....snip...Between 2/3 child die every day through child abuse.
Are you sure about that number? If so, then that is a staggering statistic......and one I'm sure the press would have a field day with.

Yes that is a true figure but....that figure also takes into account parents who kill their children when they take their own lives. Most of those children are NOT under any social protection order either.
Roughly one child a day dies that way.... I read that somewhere only recently....tragic.
A UNICEF report in 2003 suggested that child deaths from abuse is more than twice as high as official records suggest...and they stated that 2 children a week under 15 died as a result of child abuse.

I'm not trying to be pendantic and argue about numbers, just that 2/3 per day is a quite staggering statistic.
Quote by curiousguy49
A UNICEF report in 2003 suggested that child deaths from abuse is more than twice as high as official records suggest...and they stated that 2 children a week under 15 died as a result of child abuse.

I'm not trying to be pendantic and argue about numbers, just that 2/3 per day is a quite staggering statistic.

It's a bit of a 'creative account' to be fair, the report itself states that when deaths with “undetermined cause” are included this more than doubles the death rate per 100,000 children.
From 0.4 per 100,000 to 0.9 per 100,000.
They qualify this addition;
"The assumption made by UNICEF in this report is that when no other cause can be established the death is most likely to be the result of maltreatment that cannot be proven in a court of law."
Not exactly honest for me, but hey, it proves a point in some ways, statistics can be manipulated to show pretty much whatever you want them to.
Quote by staffcple
A UNICEF report in 2003 suggested that child deaths from abuse is more than twice as high as official records suggest...and they stated that 2 children a week under 15 died as a result of child abuse.

I'm not trying to be pendantic and argue about numbers, just that 2/3 per day is a quite staggering statistic.

It's a bit of a 'creative account' to be fair, the report itself states that when deaths with “undetermined cause” are included this more than doubles the death rate per 100,000 children.
From 0.4 per 100,000 to 0.9 per 100,000.
They qualify this addition;
"The assumption made by UNICEF in this report is that when no other cause can be established the death is most likely to be the result of maltreatment that cannot be proven in a court of law."
Not exactly honest for me, but hey, it proves a point in some ways, statistics can be manipulated to show pretty much whatever you want them to.
Yep, agree totally re the manipulation of statistics but it does suggest that the official figure in 2003 was somewhere in the region of 50 deaths per year.
I think i said earlier in the debate that was the figure I'd read somewhere, 1 child per week on average.
I'd be interested to know how many children have not become a statistic due to successfull child protection intervention, unfortunately we never seem to hear about that do we?
This is the whole problem I have with the blame culture in this country, people are content to sit and throw allegations of negligence, without knowing the full facts, without accounting for the good work done, this prevents people from joining and encourages those already doing it to leave the profession, anyone of whom may somewhere down the line be in a position save a child in this situation. I've seen suggestions that the social workers in this case are as guilty of this childs murder as those convicted?
How the hell can anyone justify that accusation? One particular post on this thread really summed it up for me, 'Fuck up and get fucked up' If there was ever a case of the elephant in the room being utterly invisible, that was it.
This whole situation is nothing more than mass hysteria, started and fanned by the media coverage of this case, I said it at the start and I'll maintain it, all the hand wringing, vitriol toward social workers, blame, unsupported allegations and trial by media won't make a damn bit of difference in either this case, or the next one, because sure as the sun will rise, there will be others.
Unless of course child protection becomes the absolute priority it should always have been. In which case people will have to accept over-protectiveness, which it seems the various agencies involved get villified for as well.
Simple equation;
You can't have it both ways, which do you prefer?
I have to agree with pretty much everything you say but you can't really blame the media for reporting the case, HOW it's reported is another matter!
In answer to your final question, I think I would prefer to err on the side of caution, 50 deaths per yeat is still 50 too many.
Absolutely,
Sharing the knowledge that this type of thing goes on is in the public interest, without any shadow of a doubt. The details of this case have sickened me and i have a strong stomach. I would have no compunction in seeing the three people convicted of perpretrating this act hung as a warning to those who abuse, kill or maim the most vulnerable in our society.
The way it's being directed, organised and petrol poured on by the various media outlets involved (and to be fair it's not all of them, mainly the 'gutter press') to become a witch hunt aimed at those who would help disgusts me. Mainly due to the hypocrisy of it all, but also wondering what agenda drives it.
Quote by kentswingers777
...
When somebody CHOOSES to take that course of work, they take the money, so when things go wrong, if that is that persons fault, then sacrificial lamb they should become. If you cannot do the job you have been trained to do, after you have banked your money, then either get out or face the sack. I am sick and tired of seeing people in all walks of life, not being capable of doing the job they are paid to do.
...
I will not shed a tear for them, and will accept peoples attitudes to be different when the real facts are proved.
...

I'm one of the people who got out. The job wasn't for me so I left, but I do have some real personal knowledge of working conditions within child protection. Mrs northwest is an extremely experienced and well qualified social worker. She is very good at her job. She does not work in child protection, has not done so for many years and would resign if she was forced to go back to it. That is the reality of recruitment and retention within child protection. Mostly, the child protection teams are staffed by newly qualified recruits who will burn out within a couple of years and either leave that area of practice or leave the job completely. They will be replaced by yet more newly qualified people.
I would not advocate social workers who show reckless negligence remaining in the job. However, I would wait until the facts of the case were published by the review body rather than by a selection of witch-hunting journalists. The sort of hysterical reporting that we have seen in this case will mean that there are even fewer social workers prepared to do this work. Fewer workers means even higher caseloads which means that there will inevitably be more tragedies like this.
Sorry forgot to qoute but,
Staffcple said this:
'Unless of course child protection becomes the absolute priority it should always have been. In which case people will have to accept over-protectiveness, which it seems the various agencies involved get villified for as well.'
I think this is very true, I have noticed that some of those who want the witch hunt here, have been those that in past threads have displayed their horror at Britain turning into a 'nanny state'.
Yes indeedy, you can't have it both ways....
Quote by staffcple
I think i said earlier in the debate that was the figure I'd read somewhere, 1 child per week on average.
I'd be interested to know how many children have not become a statistic due to successfull child protection intervention, unfortunately we never seem to hear about that do we?
This is the whole problem I have with the blame culture in this country, people are content to sit and throw allegations of negligence, without knowing the full facts, without accounting for the good work done, this prevents people from joining and encourages those already doing it to leave the profession, anyone of whom may somewhere down the line be in a position save a child in this situation. I've seen suggestions that the social workers in this case are as guilty of this childs murder as those convicted?
How the hell can anyone justify that accusation? One particular post on this thread really summed it up for me, 'Fuck up and get fucked up' If there was ever a case of the elephant in the room being utterly invisible, that was it.
This whole situation is nothing more than mass hysteria, started and fanned by the media coverage of this case, I said it at the start and I'll maintain it, all the hand wringing, vitriol toward social workers, blame, unsupported allegations and trial by media won't make a damn bit of difference in either this case, or the next one, because sure as the sun will rise, there will be others.
Unless of course child protection becomes the absolute priority it should always have been. In which case people will have to accept over-protectiveness, which it seems the various agencies involved get villified for as well.
Simple equation;
You can't have it both ways, which do you prefer?

I have a friend that has fostered for years, I know personally of 6 children that have gone on to be adopted and SS have got it right these children are thriving. But sadly I know of one that it was deemed by doctors that mother could have her child back, but unfortunately she wasn’t of stable mind and the child is no longer with us, I can still see his smile some 10 years on.
staffcple
I would just like to say I have read all your posts in this thread, and really like what you have said. Your responses to me have been very logical and you see the wider picture, I for one have not read anything about this case, I don't like newspapers I blame them for a lot of what this country feels today, I feel they can brainwash a lot to think in a certain way, and some people just don't see what is happening.
We all know there are children at risk, we all know mistakes happen surely isnt that the way things hopefully improve?
Look back in time to how children were treated I think you only have to read Charles Dickens to appreciate that, to where we are today.
I believe we have as a society come a long way.
It is never going to be perfect, but then life isn't perfect.
Quote by Theladyisaminx
I can still see his smile some 10 years on.

All I can offer Minxy is a :therethere:
And a thank you for your very kind comment.
xxx
This may or not throw a bit of light on things.
What does it say to you Kent?
To me it looks as though Social workers did everything they could reasonably be expected to do, however due to limitations in the existing legislation and there not being enough evidence to proscecute the mother prior to the childs death, they had no or very little choice in the action they took.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, you cannot have it both ways,
If no evidence is found to support allegations of abuse then should social services have the right to permanantly remove a child from it's parent? With the best will in the world, concerns don't matter worth a damn, within the current system, factual, supported evidence is needed to gain a long term care order.
I have not read anything in this article to convince me if anything has failed it is the current system rather than any one individual or organisation.
Quote by kentswingers777
This may or not throw a bit of light on things.

I just hope panorama don’t put a slant on the programme and just show the facts and let people make up their own minds.
Will be interesting to see comments after the programme has finished.
Quote by staffcple
What does it say to you Kent?
To me it looks as though Social workers did everything they could reasonably be expected to do, however due to limitations in the existing legislation and there not being enough evidence to proscecute the mother prior to the childs death, they had no or very little choice in the action they took.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, you cannot have it both ways,
If no evidence is found to support allegations of abuse then should social services have the right to permanantly remove a child from it's parent? With the best will in the world, concerns don't matter worth a damn, within the current system, factual, supported evidence is needed to gain a long term care order.
I have not read anything in this article to convince me if anything has failed it is the current system rather than any one individual or organisation.

Maybe that was the reason the Commissar was so tetchy last PMQ's dunno
HMG are responsible for the current system - no-one else and the Commissar is now the one desperately trying to wriggle out of it since they (HMG) have done diddly squat since it happened the last time - on his shift no less!!
But in essence you are absolutely right.. without hard factual evidence, the prosecutor would be pissing in the wind.
Suspend the whole lot on full pay with a public enquiry and in 4 years time, not a lot will have changed (apart from their gardens).
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't!