Should these people be sacked?

17 Nov 2008

Quote by GnV
What does it say to you Kent?
To me it looks as though Social workers did everything they could reasonably be expected to do, however due to limitations in the existing legislation and there not being enough evidence to proscecute the mother prior to the childs death, they had no or very little choice in the action they took.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, you cannot have it both ways,
If no evidence is found to support allegations of abuse then should social services have the right to permanantly remove a child from it's parent? With the best will in the world, concerns don't matter worth a damn, within the current system, factual, supported evidence is needed to gain a long term care order.
I have not read anything in this article to convince me if anything has failed it is the current system rather than any one individual or organisation.

Maybe that was the reason the Commissar was so tetchy last PMQ's dunno

HMG are responsible for the current system - no-one else and the Commissar is now the one desperately trying to wriggle out of it since they (HMG) have done diddly squat since it happened the last time - on his shift no less!!
But in essence you are absolutely right.. without hard factual evidence, the prosecutor would be pissing in the wind.
Suspend the whole lot on full pay with a public enquiry and in 4 years time, not a lot will have changed (apart from their gardens).
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't!
Thats true GNV. I just do not EVER want to see a case like this again. It has turned my stomach and my faith in fellow man is not that high anyway but...after seeing what this baby went through, it is even less.
All we all want is for children to be safe and lead a happy childhood, without tosser parents and stepfathers, beating them to death.
I hope something positive comes out of this total mess, and that maybe just maybe lessons can and will be learnt this time......Oh God I hope so.
It has made it even worse for me now after they printed that lovely picture of the child, I go cold just thinking about it.

17 Nov 2008

Unfortunately Kent we will see other cases like this, there really is nothing we can do that will ever totally eradicate these type of crimes from our society, if we manage to save every single child we know about, there will be others who never come to light until it's far too late.
There are positives coming from this case already, although I do not in any way agree with the direction it seems to be going in, the very fact these debates are happening is surely a good thing, if shedding light on this, distressing though it is, makes one person make a phonecall about a child they have concerns about when before they would not have, it's a good thing.
I wonder what message is being received within the upper echelons of government, is the public outcry going to force an honest review and a serious attempt to fix the broken things within our society, it should but i fear all we will receive are empty platitudes and broken promises again, society should not let this drop, however call me cynical but I wonder if we or the media will still be discussing this case in 6 months?
I really do wonder though and I'm going off topic here, how this subject ties in with this recent survey.....Is this hypocrisy, genuine fear or media driven demonisation?

17 Nov 2008

Quote by staffcple
Unfortunately Kent we will see other cases like this, there really is nothing we can do that will ever totally eradicate these type of crimes from our society, if we manage to save every single child we know about, there will be others who never come to light until it's far too late.
There are positives coming from this case already, although I do not in any way agree with the direction it seems to be going in, the very fact these debates are happening is surely a good thing, if shedding light on this, distressing though it is, makes one person make a phonecall about a child they have concerns about when before they would not have, it's a good thing.
I wonder what message is being received within the upper echelons of government, is the public outcry going to force an honest review and a serious attempt to fix the broken things within our society, it should but i fear all we will receive are empty platitudes and broken promises again, society should not let this drop, however call me cynical but I wonder if we or the media will still be discussing this case in 6 months?
I really do wonder though and I'm going off topic here, how this subject ties in with this recent survey.....Is this hypocrisy, genuine fear or media driven demonisation?

Staffs,
I need to go out soon but I just watched that film and I have gone cold at that sight, I am totally speachless. I would like to come back in a response to that footage but I will have a lot to say, I think that is a whole different thread and this one should be left to what the op orginial questions are about.

17 Nov 2008

Quote by staffcple
Unfortunately Kent we will see other cases like this, there really is nothing we can do that will ever totally eradicate these type of crimes from our society, if we manage to save every single child we know about, there will be others who never come to light until it's far too late.
There are positives coming from this case already, although I do not in any way agree with the direction it seems to be going in, the very fact these debates are happening is surely a good thing, if shedding light on this, distressing though it is, makes one person make a phonecall about a child they have concerns about when before they would not have, it's a good thing.
I wonder what message is being received within the upper echelons of government, is the public outcry going to force an honest review and a serious attempt to fix the broken things within our society, it should but i fear all we will receive are empty platitudes and broken promises again, society should not let this drop, however call me cynical but I wonder if we or the media will still be discussing this case in 6 months?
I really do wonder though and I'm going off topic here, how this subject ties in with this recent survey.....Is this hypocrisy, genuine fear or media driven demonisation?

I would like to hope they will act now. Call me cynical but with an election looming...maybe they will.
Haringey council have now been involved in two very high profile cases, is that coincindence or just bad luck? I feel that for a council that has already had one massive media campaign against it, I find it incredible that the very same council, are now under investigation for the very same thing again.
That is one of the things that makes me wonder, are they really that bad? dunno

As for your link I would like to see that possibly discussed on another thread.

17 Nov 2008

A classic example which illustrates you can't have it both ways.....
Both headlines from the Sun website today;

Quote by The Sun
A father today demanded an apology from police after he was arrested and locked in a cell overnight – for smacking his son’s leg.
He said the police reaction was “massively over-the-top”
Mr F, from Plymouth, Devon, said: “I find it shocking how easy it is to have someone arrested. To think that all this happened on the back of one allegation.

Quote by The Sun
Baby P’s shattered gran said last night as she mourned her little angel: “I will never forgive social workers for what’s happened.”

So chances taken or not?

18 Nov 2008

Did anyone watch the Panorama programme? I taped it but have not watched it.

19 Nov 2008

Can anyone verifiy this for me...i have been informed that the mother is being allowed to bond with the baby she had in prison?

19 Nov 2008

Quote by Mr-Powers
Can anyone verifiy this for me...i have been informed that the mother is being allowed to bond with the baby she had in prison?

No idea - but Ive just been told the parents names have been leaked (rightly or wrongly).

19 Nov 2008

Quote by anais
Can anyone verifiy this for me...i have been informed that the mother is being allowed to bond with the baby she had in prison?

No idea - but Ive just been told the parents names have been leaked (rightly or wrongly).
well if it is true, i am truly gobspacked but i am not surprised!

19 Nov 2008

I have just received a text message naming the people convicted. Names and everything.
I have been asked to pass it on to everyone I know, which I will not.
I do not know if this is real or not, but I can only presume it is.
It will come out in the papers eventually anyway I supopose, but I am still waiting for any official news the people involved have been sacked, and an assurance they will never ever work in child care again.

19 Nov 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
It will come out in the papers eventually anyway I supopose, but I am still waiting for any official news the people involved have been sacked, and an assurance they will never ever work in child care again.

don't hold your breath...it will not happen!

19 Nov 2008

Quote by Mr-Powers

It will come out in the papers eventually anyway I supopose, but I am still waiting for any official news the people involved have been sacked, and an assurance they will never ever work in child care again.

don't hold your breath...it will not happen!
Bet ya a fiver it will. lol

Not a moment too soon either.

19 Nov 2008

Quote by kentswingers777

It will come out in the papers eventually anyway I supopose, but I am still waiting for any official news the people involved have been sacked, and an assurance they will never ever work in child care again.

don't hold your breath...it will not happen!
Bet ya a fiver it will. lol

Not a moment too soon either.
the doctor will be the only one that will be punished in anyway!

19 Nov 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
I am still waiting for any official news the people involved have been sacked, and an assurance they will never ever work in child care again.

If this happens then we may as well support vigilantes, lynch mobs, etc.
A trial by tabloid is disgusting.
Dave_Notts

19 Nov 2008

Quote by Dave__Notts
I am still waiting for any official news the people involved have been sacked, and an assurance they will never ever work in child care again.

If this happens then we may as well support vigilantes, lynch mobs, etc.
A trial by tabloid is disgusting.
Dave_Notts
Will you be another one who will think differently if the people involved are proved to be guilty?
It is not a trial by the media, it is reporting information they have, or would you rather go back to the days when this would never have come to light?

19 Nov 2008

I can understand why people can be skeptical about the events surrounding Baby P's death when all they have is sensationlised headlines from the tabloids...but if an independant investigation was allowed,to discover if Haringay was at fault,would people then agree that said social workers and their bosses involved the in the decisions to keep baby p with his mother should face prosecution.

19 Nov 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
I am still waiting for any official news the people involved have been sacked, and an assurance they will never ever work in child care again.

If this happens then we may as well support vigilantes, lynch mobs, etc.
A trial by tabloid is disgusting.
Dave_Notts
Will you be another one who will think differently if the people involved are proved to be guilty?
It is not a trial by the media, it is reporting information they have, or would you rather go back to the days when this would never have come to light?
I remember when they published the face pictures and addresses of 's in the papers. One family were run out of town and one man was beaten half to death by the neighbours. Then it was discovered that the photos and addresses were wrong :shock:
It doesn't matter as the papers said sorry.
That is bollox I am afraid. We have a legal system in this country, we also have independant audits and reviews of services if a complaint is made.........we do not need the tabloids to be judge, jury and executioner. They should report the news........not make the news.
Dave_Notts
PS as for will I think differently? If a trial or independant review identifies individuals as responsible for negligence then I would say they are negligent.......but that is not happening here. You and the Sun are calling for these people to be sacked now. No trial or review has been carried out. This is lynch mob mentality in my opinion. I thought this civilised country had passed this stage.......obviously I am wrong.

19 Nov 2008

Quote by Dave__Notts
I am still waiting for any official news the people involved have been sacked, and an assurance they will never ever work in child care again.

If this happens then we may as well support vigilantes, lynch mobs, etc.
A trial by tabloid is disgusting.
Dave_Notts
Will you be another one who will think differently if the people involved are proved to be guilty?
It is not a trial by the media, it is reporting information they have, or would you rather go back to the days when this would never have come to light?
I remember when they published the face pictures and addresses of 's in the papers. One family were run out of town and one man was beaten half to death by the neighbours. Then it was discovered that the photos and addresses were wrong :shock:
It doesn't matter as the papers said sorry.
That is bollox I am afraid. We have a legal system in this country, we also have independant audits and reviews of services if a complaint is made.........we do not need the tabloids to be judge, jury and executioner. They should report the news........not make the news.
Dave_Notts
PS as for will I think differently? If a trial or independant review identifies individuals as responsible for negligence then I would say they are negligent.......but that is not happening here. You and the Sun are calling for these people to be sacked now. No trial or review has been carried out. This is lynch mob mentality in my opinion. I thought this civilised country had passed this stage.......obviously I am wrong.
That is a contradiction in terms that one.
I heard today that the police told social services three times NOT to send the baby back to it's pathetic Mother, but they ignored all advice. That is a fact, not a newspapers exageration.
The sheer arrogance of that woman who failed to even offer any sort of appology, in my minds sums up everything that is wrong in this case.
Why is it even with hard facts people still are there offering excuses. The do gooders will have a field day with the Mother and her Boyfriend when they go to prison. I bet they have them lined up around the block already.

19 Nov 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
That is a contradiction in terms that one.
I heard today that the police told social services three times NOT to send the baby back to it's pathetic Mother, but they ignored all advice. That is a fact, not a newspapers exageration.
The sheer arrogance of that woman who failed to even offer any sort of appology, in my minds sums up everything that is wrong in this case.
Why is it even with hard facts people still are there offering excuses. The do gooders will have a field day with the Mother and her Boyfriend when they go to prison. I bet they have them lined up around the block already.

I have not read this tit bit, but going off other reports............
The police did not bring charges against the mother because they did not have enough evidence. Yet they would offer advice not to return a child to its parent. The SS would have acted on their advice if they gave them hard evidence.....not just a hunch. The law does not work without evidence.
Not a contridiction at all. Journalists are there to report news. The Sun are now making the news.
Facts can be seen differently by different people. For example, how many times did the Social Services visit this family?
Dave_Notts
Dave_Notts

19 Nov 2008

Quote by Dave__Notts

That is a contradiction in terms that one.
I heard today that the police told social services three times NOT to send the baby back to it's pathetic Mother, but they ignored all advice. That is a fact, not a newspapers exageration.
The sheer arrogance of that woman who failed to even offer any sort of appology, in my minds sums up everything that is wrong in this case.
Why is it even with hard facts people still are there offering excuses. The do gooders will have a field day with the Mother and her Boyfriend when they go to prison. I bet they have them lined up around the block already.

I have not read this tit bit, but going off other reports............
The police did not bring charges against the mother because they did not have enough evidence. Yet they would offer advice not to return a child to its parent. The SS would have acted on their advice if they gave them hard evidence.....not just a hunch. The law does not work without evidence.
Not a contridiction at all. Journalists are there to report news. The Sun are now making the news.
Facts can be seen differently by different people. For example, how many times did the Social Services visit this family?
Dave_Notts
Dave_Notts
60 times as you are well aware...

19 Nov 2008

Quote by kentswingers777

That is a contradiction in terms that one.
I heard today that the police told social services three times NOT to send the baby back to it's pathetic Mother, but they ignored all advice. That is a fact, not a newspapers exageration.
The sheer arrogance of that woman who failed to even offer any sort of appology, in my minds sums up everything that is wrong in this case.
Why is it even with hard facts people still are there offering excuses. The do gooders will have a field day with the Mother and her Boyfriend when they go to prison. I bet they have them lined up around the block already.

I have not read this tit bit, but going off other reports............
The police did not bring charges against the mother because they did not have enough evidence. Yet they would offer advice not to return a child to its parent. The SS would have acted on their advice if they gave them hard evidence.....not just a hunch. The law does not work without evidence.
Not a contridiction at all. Journalists are there to report news. The Sun are now making the news.
Facts can be seen differently by different people. For example, how many times did the Social Services visit this family?
Dave_Notts
Dave_Notts
60 times as you are well aware...
Ah the fact is 10 times (The Sun published the prosecution timetable of events).................the other 50 times include baby P going to the doctors for three monthly immunisation, 1 monthly weigh in, vommiting at 2 months old, oral thrush at a couple of months old. So this fact.........has just dissolved. Now how many other facts have the Sun given their slant to.
I would like to see an independant report before I throw the first stone...........but if you want to keep believing the Sun......then that is your choice
Dave_Notts

19 Nov 2008

Yes it is MY choice,a choice I make willingly.
I hope that when these people are proved guilty all the media haters will issue a nice..... I was wrong statement.

20 Nov 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
Yes it is MY choice,a choice I make willingly.
I hope that when these people are proved guilty all the media haters will issue a nice..... I was wrong statement.

So was it a fact? Had they been there 60 times? The Sun (media) has wrote it numerous times.
I am not a hater of the media. It has its place........but not to make the news but to report it truthfully.
How can I be wrong? I am saying that these people can not be judged until a trial or independant review has been carried out. Neither has so how can they be judged. I thought that is what my fore-fathers fought two world wars to prevent.
Dave_Notts

20 Nov 2008

Straight to the point,,,,,
Bollocks, someone has to admit liabilty!!!

20 Nov 2008

Quote by Mr-Powers
Can anyone verifiy this for me...i have been informed that the mother is being allowed to bond with the baby she had in prison?

No idea - but Ive just been told the parents names have been leaked (rightly or wrongly).
well if it is true, i am truly gobspacked but i am not surprised!
I was even more gobsmacked when my daughter started telling me about Social Network sites having to take the mothers profile/s down after hate messages were left on profiles. Also groups have been set up, giving out full names of mother, father and child etc.
I'm not keen on this vigilante crap - its totally unnecessary.

20 Nov 2008

Kent,
I really do not know where you get this 'hater of the media' idea from.
I do not hate anyone or anything to be honest, I am in complete agreement with Dave here, who has put it far better than i ever could, the media's job is to report the news, giving only the facts, not to drive it, make it or embellish it.
That is a responsible media.
A media which starts and maintains witch hunts, lies, embellishes the facts and publishes stories not in the public interest just to tittilate and gossip is not a responsible media, they are dangerous and without control and everyone should be worried, because somewhere down the line it might be you or somebody close to you they do it to.
For gods sake, how many libel cases can you remember against the papers? Simple question here;
If the papers always tell the truth, why do they lose in court so often?
Remember, these are only people who can afford access to a libel trial, how many regular people have been smeared and had their lives ruined?
Oh and I posted this link earlier in the debate, it's perhaps not totally independant, but it does involve a lot of the agencies who had input into this case....

20 Nov 2008

Quote by browning
Straight to the point,,,,,
Bollocks, someone has to admit liabilty!!!

The parent
Dave_Notts

20 Nov 2008

Quote by Dave__Notts
Straight to the point,,,,,
Bollocks, someone has to admit liabilty!!!

The parent
Dave_Notts
how revolutionary Dave. rolleyes

20 Nov 2008

Quote by Dave__Notts
Straight to the point,,,,,
Bollocks, someone has to admit liabilty!!!

The parent
Dave_Notts
Pretty bloody obvious isn't it?
dunno

20 Nov 2008

Quote by Dave__Notts
Straight to the point,,,,,
Bollocks, someone has to admit liabilty!!!

The parent
Dave_Notts
The Boyfriend
and the Lodger!