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Should these people be sacked?

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Quote by anais
Can anyone verifiy this for me...i have been informed that the mother is being allowed to bond with the baby she had in prison?

No idea - but Ive just been told the parents names have been leaked (rightly or wrongly).
well if it is true, i am truly gobspacked but i am not surprised!
I was even more gobsmacked when my daughter started telling me about Social Network sites having to take the mothers profile/s down after hate messages were left on profiles. Also groups have been set up, giving out full names of mother, fatherand child etc.
I'm not keen on this vigilante crap - its totally unnecessary.
alot of people seem to think the father is the boyfriend responsible for baby p's death...he's not...people need to wait for the facts first...can't comment on vigilantism...if someone purposely went out of there way to harm and kill a loved one of mine there is no saying what i'd do...i have no faith in the justice system!
Quote by Mr-Powers
snip...
alot of people seem to think the father is the boyfriend responsible for baby p's death...he's not...people need to wait for the facts first...can't comment on vigilantism...if someone purposely went out of there way to harm and kill a loved one of mine there is no saying what i'd do...i have no faith in the justice system!

what justice system?
Quote by GnV
snip...
alot of people seem to think the father is the boyfriend responsible for baby p's death...he's not...people need to wait for the facts first...can't comment on vigilantism...if someone purposely went out of there way to harm and kill a loved one of mine there is no saying what i'd do...i have no faith in the justice system!

what justice system?
I assure you we do have a justice system...but it seems to have lost its way and forgotten whose side it's on!
Quote by Mr-Powers
snip...
alot of people seem to think the father is the boyfriend responsible for baby p's death...he's not...people need to wait for the facts first...can't comment on vigilantism...if someone purposely went out of there way to harm and kill a loved one of mine there is no saying what i'd do...i have no faith in the justice system!

what justice system?
I assure you we do have a justice system...but it seems to have lost its way and forgotten whose side it's on!It is a law system, justice is something all on it's own.
Quote by
snip...
alot of people seem to think the father is the boyfriend responsible for baby p's death...he's not...people need to wait for the facts first...can't comment on vigilantism...if someone purposely went out of there way to harm and kill a loved one of mine there is no saying what i'd do...i have no faith in the justice system!

what justice system?
I assure you we do have a justice system...but it seems to have lost its way and forgotten whose side it's on!It is a law system, justice is something all on it's own.
i'm referring to the justice system...the law is an ass as we are all aware!
Quote by Mr-Powers
snip...
alot of people seem to think the father is the boyfriend responsible for baby p's death...he's not...people need to wait for the facts first...can't comment on vigilantism...if someone purposely went out of there way to harm and kill a loved one of mine there is no saying what i'd do...i have no faith in the justice system!

what justice system?
I assure you we do have a justice system...but it seems to have lost its way and forgotten whose side it's on!It is a law system, justice is something all on it's own.
i'm referring to the justice system...the law is an ass as we are all aware!I know, we call it the justice system, but is the system just? Only sometimes.
I know I am being pedantic.
Whats the alternative?
Any system where human interpretation is involved is never going to be perfect.
Due process and guilt proven beyond all reasonable doubt is the way it has to be, to do anything different is the first step down a very very dark road.....
The legal system should and must treat both parties as equal, both accused and accuser, until a finding of guilt has been proven and sentence passed.
Even then all findings of guilt must be open to independent review, if new evidence comes to light, that casts doubt on the original case.
That's pretty much the way it is now, so why look to change it?
Incidentally, I wonder if evidence is found that does lead to individuals within Haringey Child Protection Services to stand trial, how much the media coverage of this case could be counted as 'prejudicial'.
Just seen a group on fb with a picture of the mother and names and addresses of mother step father and lodger confused not sure how true the are :?
Quote by TanKinky
Just seen a group on fb with a picture of the mother and names and addresses of mother step father and lodger confused not sure how true the are :?

they are unfortunately,and i only say because...
the person who has posted this stuff on facebook,have no idea the damage they may cause with further charges being brought against the mother and the boyfriend,the very reason they have not been named yet!
Quote by staffcple
Whats the alternative?
Any system where human interpretation is involved is never going to be perfect.
Due process and guilt proven beyond all reasonable doubt is the way it has to be, to do anything different is the first step down a very very dark road.....
The legal system should and must treat both parties as equal, both accused and accuser, until a finding of guilt has been proven and sentence passed.
Even then all findings of guilt must be open to independent review, if new evidence comes to light, that casts doubt on the original case.
That's pretty much the way it is now, so why look to change it?
Incidentally, I wonder if evidence is found that does lead to individuals within Haringey Child Protection Services to stand trial, how much the media coverage of this case could be counted as 'prejudicial'.

That is a very good point indeed Staffs. Their lawyers would say it is impossible to get a fair trial, and I have to admit it probably would. I would hate to see anybody " get off " because of a point of law.
I do not agree with everything the newspapers say or sometimes believe in what they write but... I would rather have a system how it is where things are reported, that years ago would never have come to light. I could give many examples of this but do not want to go off topic.
The naming of the " guilty people " I believe was wrong, also the disclosure of their address. But that was always going to come out I suppose. I hope the judicial system gives them the maximum sentence they can, but I feel that even if they do, some human rights tosser will come along and say the sentence is too harsh. The sentence should be life without any prospect of release, for the three that have been found gulity. If only there was a death penalty!
I believe that even if an enquiry is done and people from Haringey council are proved to have been at fault, they will not stand trial. Sacked yes, but go to a trial I believe not.
My only hope is that every day the Mother and the other two scumbags, they suffer fear and hatred aimed at them. I hope that for every waking second they look over their shoulders, because they will have too. If somebody and they will " get them ", either in prison or outside, that it will be as bad as they gave that child...... All good things come to those who wait.
Quote by Mr-Powers
Just seen a group on fb with a picture of the mother and names and addresses of mother step father and lodger confused not sure how true the are :?

they are unfortunately,and i only say because...
the person who has posted this stuff on facebook,have no idea the damage they may cause with further charges being brought against the mother and the boyfriend,the very reason they have not been named yet!
How true :?
Quote by kentswingers777
I do not agree with everything the newspapers say or sometimes believe in what they write but... I would rather have a system how it is where things are reported, that years ago would never have come to light. I could give many examples of this but do not want to go off topic.

Then were finding some common ground at last lol
I have no problem with the news being reported factually, accurately and being stories which are in the public's best interest to know about. It is the intrusion into the lives of private individuals, the lies, the embellishment, the 'sexing up' and the colouring to suit there agenda that I despise.
Dave has already pointed this out, with a clear example of 'facts' used in the reporting of this story, that on reasonable inspection are not facts in any way shape or form, honestly, the truth of "Social Services actually made 10 home visits to this child during his life, during some of which the parent went to great lengths to hide marks and bruises on the child" doesn't sound anywhere near as controversial as "Social Services missed clear signs of abuse during 60 visits, how many chances do they need, blah, wail, gnash teeth, wring hands"
That's the problem I have with this whole thing. Not that its being reported as in the public interest, but the way and the inference behind the way it's reported. Seems to me from some of the vitriol I've read, the victim and god forbid the perpretrators of this terrible crime are almost secondary in the media's attempt to destroy the careers of those who no matter what you think of them, try to help.
What an odd world we live in.
Working in a sector that works directly with vulnerable people I see daily people slipping through the net. Staff are stretched to the limit and have to focus on what is thier job. Everyone cannot be everything to all people.
Although i feel this is a terrible thing to happen to anyone let alone a very small defenceless child how can one single person or a small group be held responsible.
Clients are often pushed from one worker to another and the workers are given little or no time to get to know the families or children involved.
Its very sad but the whole of social services shouldnt be held to task but the government for under resourcing services which are badly needed in our communities. Workers try very hard to meet everyones needs but there simply isnt enough time.
No single person is responsible for this (other than the adults that did the terrible abuse)
Quote by staffcple
Dave has already pointed this out, with a clear example of 'facts' used in the reporting of this story, that on reasonable inspection are not facts in any way shape or form, honestly, the truth of "Social Services actually made 10 home visits to this child during his life, during some of which the parent went to great lengths to hide marks and bruises on the child" doesn't sound anywhere near as controversial as "Social Services missed clear signs of abuse during 60 visits, how many chances do they need, blah, wail, gnash teeth, wring hands"

I'd be more concerned about the SS only making a couple of visits. The fact that they made so many to me says that they weren't being negligent and were checking as closely as they could within their financial, logistical and authority limits.
Well here it is,
The full health dossier listing all involved agencies contact with the child and his mother.....
Make you own mind up,
Quote by staffcple
Well here it is,
The full health dossier listing all involved agencies contact with the child and his mother.....
Make you own mind up,

Yes Staffs I have seen and read this report in the papers. The Sun never said that 60 visits had been made by SOCIAL WORKERS, only that 60 visits had been made. Ok they may not have said by all the " agencies " involved, and yes maybe people read what they want too. :shock:
The fact of the matter is.... the police on 3 seperate occasions spoke to Social Services and told them NOT to put the child back with the parent, as they obviously had their own serious concerns. That my friend is a fact. I know they are not Social Workers but maybe just maybe, is it possible they saw something that Social Services either did not see, or want to see? You be the judge.
It is one thing making mistakes that cost money but quite another when a mistake or mistakes happen that cost lives. If a train driver is negligent in his job and a life is lost, his employers can and do suffer the consequences of court action. If Social Services are ( and I believe they were ) proved negligent then their highest boss at Haringey should face the same criminal charges the train company would.
Kenty.. so the month is starting from when then ? rolleyes
Quote by splendid_
Kenty.. so the month is starting from when then ? rolleyes
Splendid this is my thread and was started well before out little " agreement ". lol
I have to answer people.............don't I ? :shock:
Quote by kentswingers777
Kenty.. so the month is starting from when then ? rolleyes
Splendid this is my thread and was started well before out little " agreement ". lol
I have to answer people.............don't I ? :shock:
ummm well the month starts from your last contribution. You could keep this thread limping along to satisfy your political urges. :lol:
Quote by splendid_
Kenty.. so the month is starting from when then ? rolleyes
Splendid this is my thread and was started well before out little " agreement ". lol
I have to answer people.............don't I ? :shock:
ummm well the month starts from your last contribution. You could keep this thread limping along to satisfy your political urges. :lol:
IF nobody had any " political urges ", what the heck would ever get done? dunno
Quote by kentswingers777
The fact of the matter is.... the police on 3 seperate occasions spoke to Social Services and told them NOT to put the child back with the parent, as they obviously had their own serious concerns.
The SS, Environmental Health, Health and Safety Executive are local agencies that can remove people or things from public life to protect the public..........but they can only do this with evidence. You say the police had concerns.......but what evidence is their concern/hunch
That my friend is a fact.
Yep you are right........it is a fact that the police did not have enough evdence to proceed within the law.
I know they are not Social Workers but maybe just maybe, is it possible they saw something that Social Services either did not see, or want to see? You be the judge.
If they saw it they would be a witness and that would be evidence.......then the police could use their own powers.......since they dropped the carges/investigation then I would assume they did not have any evidence
It is one thing making mistakes that cost money but quite another when a mistake or mistakes happen that cost lives. If a train driver is negligent in his job and a life is lost, his employers can and do suffer the consequences of court action. If Social Services are ( and I believe they were ) proved negligent then their highest boss at Haringey should face the same criminal charges the train company would.
An employee is not held accountable for the business. In fact the employee can be charged for their own actions
Thats very true Dave but....there have been occasions where an employee has done something seriously wrong, and the employer has also been fined or worse.
An employees actions can have a detrimental effect on an employers business, to the cost of that business, be it financial or criminal charges brought.
Quote by kentswingers777
The fact of the matter is.... the police on 3 seperate occasions spoke to Social Services and told them NOT to put the child back with the parent, as they obviously had their own serious concerns. That my friend is a fact. I know they are not Social Workers but maybe just maybe, is it possible they saw something that Social Services either did not see, or want to see? You be the judge.

As i've said before, concerns don't matter worth a damn.
To apply and be granted a long term care order, you need to provide evidence of either serious harm or risk of serious harm, whether that be emotional, physical or sexual. That's it in black and white.
If the police could not discover, gather and collate enough evidence to proceed with a criminal case with all of their investigative experience and resources, how do you suppose Social Services would do it, with infinitley less resources?
Surely if enough doubt existed to prevent criminal charges being laid, the same doubt would apply to a care order taking the child away from it's mother and siblings?
There are entries in that health dossier that detail the child being witnessed throwing himself about and banging his head against other objects, now I don't know about you, but I wouldn't know a bruise caused by a blow from a bruise caused by an accidental bump on the head.
Hindsight is a wonderful gift, if only it was available at the time, life would be perfect wouldn't it?
I have just read an article in last weeks Sunday Times and I am quoting a paragraph from it.
" You have to brace yourself even to imagine the smell that greeted the police as they enetered the council flat where baby p lived and died. There was dog mess and human mess on the floor, along with the bodies of dead chicks, mice and a dismembered rabbit-food for a hungry rottweiler and 3 other dogs. The living room floor was littered with pornograghy.
If this is in any way true it's very difficult to understand how the various agencies could leave a child in such an environment, not withstanding the allegations of abuse.
The rest of the article makes very distubing reading and suggests that while the problem is a lot more widespread than Haringey, it would appear that a lot of mistakes have been made by Haringey.
I repeat what I said earlier in this thread, that I believe that if the various professionals involved are ultimately found to have been negligent and wanting in their duties, they should then be held accountable..as would anyone else in any other walk of life.
I have just read an article in last weeks Sunday Times and I am quoting a paragraph from it.
" You have to brace yourself even to imagine the smell that greeted the police as they enetered the council flat where baby p lived and died. There was dog mess and human mess on the floor, along with the bodies of dead chicks, mice and a dismembered rabbit-food for a hungry rottweiler and 3 other dogs. The living room floor was littered with pornograghy.
If this is in any way true it's very difficult to understand how the various agencies could leave a child in such an environment, not withstanding the allegations of abuse.
The rest of the article makes very distubing reading and suggests that while the problem is a lot more widespread than Haringey, it would appear that a lot of mistakes have been made by Haringey.
I repeat what I said earlier in this thread, that I believe that if the various professionals involved are ultimately found to have been negligent and wanting in their duties, they should then be held accountable..as would anyone else in any other walk of life.
Quote by staffcple

The fact of the matter is.... the police on 3 seperate occasions spoke to Social Services and told them NOT to put the child back with the parent, as they obviously had their own serious concerns. That my friend is a fact. I know they are not Social Workers but maybe just maybe, is it possible they saw something that Social Services either did not see, or want to see? You be the judge.

As i've said before, concerns don't matter worth a damn.
To apply and be granted a long term care order, you need to provide evidence of either serious harm or risk of serious harm, whether that be emotional, physical or sexual. That's it in black and white.
If the police could not discover, gather and collate enough evidence to proceed with a criminal case with all of their investigative experience and resources, how do you suppose Social Services would do it, with infinitley less resources?
Surely if enough doubt existed to prevent criminal charges being laid, the same doubt would apply to a care order taking the child away from it's mother and siblings?
There are entries in that health dossier that detail the child being witnessed throwing himself about and banging his head against other objects, now I don't know about you, but I wouldn't know a bruise caused by a blow from a bruise caused by an accidental bump on the head.
Hindsight is a wonderful gift, if only it was available at the time, life would be perfect wouldn't it?
They could possibly have applied for an EPO ( emergency protection order ) or an interim care order. I wont bother telling people what the difference between the two is...Google is a good thing. lol But the police could have applied for an EPO and cannot understand why they did not IF they had concerns.
I must admit Staffs you argue with logic and knowledge, and have really enjoyed this discussion with you to be honest. It is nice to have opposite views on things, and not end up bickering, it has been pleasent.
Quote by kentswingers777
Thats very true Dave but....there have been occasions where an employee has done something seriously wrong, and the employer has also been fined or worse.
An employees actions can have a detrimental effect on an employers business, to the cost of that business, be it financial or criminal charges brought.

You can not bring H&S or Food Law charges against the company for the actions of an individual as this would be abuse of process.
You can either charge one or the other over an offence but you can never charge them both. Even if an officer tried......the legal team would throw it out or if they didn't.......the defence would argue in court and the judge would throw it out.
So if an individual committed an offence then the company is not liable. An example of this is when a manager removes a guard from a machine and someone then gets trapped and killed. The company bought the machine with a CE mark, they assessed the machine to see that it was suitable, they maintained it to manufacturers instructions, they trained people to use the equipment safely, they trained people to supervise employees. The company has done all that is reasonably practicable and the individual manager would be pursued with a section 7 or possibly a more severe charge.
Where it may be the company that is charged is when it can be proved that this manager was regularly removing the guard and the Managing Director or Senior Management were aware of this, then the company would be pursued as it was their act or omission (i.e. they done feck all about it) that caused the accident.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Max777
" You have to brace yourself even to imagine the smell that greeted the police as they enetered the council flat where baby p lived and died. There was dog mess and human mess on the floor, along with the bodies of dead chicks, mice and a dismembered rabbit-food for a hungry rottweiler and 3 other dogs. The living room floor was littered with pornograghy.
If this is in any way true it's very difficult to understand how the various agencies could leave a child in such an environment, not withstanding the allegations of abuse.

Try watching a life of grime or go out for a week with your local Environmental Health Department. This type of home is not uncommon and if they put all children who live in this type of environment into care then I have no idea where the funds would come from.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
" You have to brace yourself even to imagine the smell that greeted the police as they enetered the council flat where baby p lived and died. There was dog mess and human mess on the floor, along with the bodies of dead chicks, mice and a dismembered rabbit-food for a hungry rottweiler and 3 other dogs. The living room floor was littered with pornograghy.
If this is in any way true it's very difficult to understand how the various agencies could leave a child in such an environment, not withstanding the allegations of abuse.

Try watching a life of grime or go out for a week with your local Environmental Health Department. This type of home is not uncommon and if they put all children who live in this type of environment into care then I have no idea where the funds would come from.
Dave_Notts
I have to admit that I have no idea as to whether such homes are common or not and if you are speaking from experience then I bow to your superior knowledge but that still doesn't make right to leave a child in such conditions. As for programmes such as Life of Grime, I'm sure they as selective in their reporting as the tabloid press is.
Quote by Max777
" You have to brace yourself even to imagine the smell that greeted the police as they enetered the council flat where baby p lived and died. There was dog mess and human mess on the floor, along with the bodies of dead chicks, mice and a dismembered rabbit-food for a hungry rottweiler and 3 other dogs. The living room floor was littered with pornograghy.
If this is in any way true it's very difficult to understand how the various agencies could leave a child in such an environment, not withstanding the allegations of abuse.

Try watching a life of grime or go out for a week with your local Environmental Health Department. This type of home is not uncommon and if they put all children who live in this type of environment into care then I have no idea where the funds would come from.
Dave_Notts
I have to admit that I have no idea as to whether such homes are common or not and if you are speaking from experience then I bow to your superior knowledge but that still doesn't make right to leave a child in such conditions. As for programmes such as Life of Grime, I'm sure they as selective in their reporting as the tabloid press is.
You are right, kids should not live in places that are dirty and verminous. The Env Health have to follow a set procedure to identify certain qualifying factors . If these factors are not present then the people have to stay there. It is shit but thats life.
Life of Grime is very selective. It only shows the juicy bits, but it does give an idea of what is out there.
Dave_Notts