Social Conformity & Swinging

22 Mar 2005

Quote by KitKat
What I found difficult to understand, was the urge I had to tell people about swinging.
Why on earth did I want to tell somebody we were swinging, if it was not someone we would have discussed our sex life with anyway?

You discovered something new and exciting and wanted to tell someone about it. Seems a fairly normal thing to want to do. smile

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Horous
I also happen to be a Naturist, and we are represented by the BN, who seem to think that we as Naturists shouldn't have sex, and are anti swingers.

Naturists appear anti-sex to try and avoid the pervert label as they try to go mainstream within society. Social nudity is seen as non-sexual. Were they to admit to a sexual element, then family naturists could have severe problems when taking their children to naturist sites.
We were naturists for 10 years and found that many naturists, both couples and singles appeared to be very repressed sexually. However, in a situation that often involved children being present, what other alternative is there. The strict "no touching" even between partners makes sense in this situation. BN will never sanction swinging because this would lose them their hard won acceptance within society, meagre as it is.
Adult only naturist sites can be very different however, although usually not BN approved, and our entry into swinging came through this route. We have found the swinging scene far more open and liberal than naturism, probably because it is underground and not courting society at large.
With regards to telling people we are swingers, we never told anyone we were naturist. The attitudes of friends and workmates whenever naturism had been on TV was enough to tell us that we did not want to be martyrs for the cause. Swinging is something we do. We are not evangelists and have no desire to recruit people or even to share our private lives, why should we? A worse scenario would be loss of professional jobs by being outed.

22 Mar 2005

Quote by KitKat
All the comments about reactions of friends, family, neighbours and society in general are quite right - but in the end, that is not why we (Kit and I) do not discuss swinging with them. The reason we don't discuss our sex life with them is the same reason they do not discuss their sex lives with us. It is none of their/our business.

Kat - I agree with you, but you are focussing on the sex side only and are using the same argument many gays and lesbian use (those that tend to be in the closet) - "who I sleep with is my business and my business alone", but, as has been witnessed on this site - swinging also has a social side to it that some people, me included, have to make up "stories" around becuase of the norms and "rules" of society. For example - I have family in Scotland so I am allegedly visiting them this weekend. I have been to 40th birthday parties and ex-colleague work do's, when I have actually been to munches. I got to dinner with new friends I have met at these parties. etc etc. I am Lesbian - but a closet Bi, for reasons I have explained in previous threads, so shan't go into here. Life, for me, would be a lot easier if my sexuality and my sexual preferences and therefore social circle, were more widely accepted.
Alex - to answer your very thought provoking questions - it is my opinion that our social nroms are set by the majority (hence the gay slogan - "heterosexuality isn't right - it's just common"). That majority can be the majority in society as a whole (and I think the church PLUS a lot of still lingering Victorian attitudes still hold sway more than we think), or even in smaller groups such as the pubs we frequent, the places we work in etc.
I have watched, and listened, with interest to the reactions of my small gay community to the introduction of a fetish night at one of the gay pubs. This was met with a combination of ridicule and hostility at first, as it has a mainly straight clientele, but slowly people are beginning to accept that they may not be into the fetish scene, but hey - these people are, and who are "we" (the gay clientele) to judge. I personally feel that the more swingers are given positive press (which unfortunately doesn't happen right now), the more swinging will become an accepted norm for a section of society. I can't help but equate it with the gay/lesbian movement. The more gays and lesbians got out in society and said "we're queer, we're here, and we're here to stay", the more people came to accept homesexuality. We still have a loooooong way to go to get equal rights, but we are a damn site more "accepted" than we were even 20 years ago. So, perhaps, the more we, as swingers, are open about our lifestyles, the more acceptance we will gain? Yes - I know hypocritical from one who is firmly in the swinging closet - but I have to admit - if I were "outed" I wouldn't deny it. I would probably lose friends, but then I stood that same chance when I came out as Lesbian. I have discussed this with a couple I see, who have invited me to dinner with them and a group of their friends on Friday. They think that some of their friends may put two and two together, and have decided that they won't deny it if asked.
It is a hard decision to make, whether to be "out" or not - but IMO the more people who are "out", the more "acceptable" swinging will become. Just my tuppence worth really.

22 Mar 2005

On one note, I agree, its your sex life, keep it tightly hidden or shout it from the roof tops, its your life, do what you please. No-one should have to justify themselves to anyone. On that point, why is swinging such a subject? Why is swinging sensationalised by the media?
The point I was getting at is that the societal norms dictates those rules that we all conform to, especially those rules that cover the rights and wrongs of our sexuality. The media can play a negative role in informing and promoting conformity through what they publicise. Years ago, anyone who was having an extra marital affair was named and shamed. Over the last couple of decades sexual awareness has heightened, reliable contraception freely available, gay and lesbian relationships are more acceptable. Now infidelity appears to be no longer shocking, they move onto another subject, swinging.
The desire to remain in a monogamous relationship is a personal choice, as is the desire to be in a swinging relationship.
So the bottom line is, if we are consenting adults, what is wrong with having sex with whom we chose to? In fact, I will go as far as saying its not our choice, its our right.

22 Mar 2005

Great post Rainbows.
I'm out of the closet about being bi and swinging, and maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones, but my revelations where accepted without the gasps of horror as I had expected. I chose to be open about who and what I am because I'm doing my damndest to raise healthy well rounded kids, in all areas, and there's nothing sick or sordid about consensual sex. I'm not ashamed of what I do, if I was I wouldn't do it. I've also found the swinging scene has opened opportunities to discuss both bi-sexuality and gay issues without the usual sniggers, snears and tutts of teenage disgust.
Just the other day my eldest was questioning me in front of 3 of his mates about a certain members sexuality. I answered honestly. Yes the blokes bi but doesn't actively seek out other men, but is not opposed to sucking or being sucked by a bloke in a group scene. He accepted my response and disappeared upstairs while one of his mates stayed behind to ask more questions. Hey, if he grows up to raise his kids with an open mind my job is done.
Also, I don't have the time or energy to come up with lies about where I'm at and what I'm doing, I'm grown, I don't have to sneak around anymore. I don't discuss my sex life as such, but I do give straight forward answers when asked.

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Rainbows
It is a hard decision to make, whether to be "out" or not - but IMO the more people who are "out", the more "acceptable" swinging will become. Jsut my tuppence worth really.

I agree with this. I wouldn`t deny it if I was `outed` either, but I don`t feel hypocritical by not coming out myself. I just don`t have the energy to confront those who I know would never except it, and if I told people locally, it would eventually reach the ears of those I`d prefer it didn`t aka my parents! Then I`d lose my babysitters,and would have to give up swinging anyway!
Besides, I`m already marching with a mental health banner, (and a few sidekick banners wink

) I don`t have enough strength to carry any more! :P
Karenxxx

22 Mar 2005

Quote by northwest-cpl
We have found the swinging scene far more open and liberal than naturism, probably because it is underground and not courting society at large.

The word underground bring up connotations of sordid and secret.
Why should it be underground?

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Alex_Female
The word underground bring up connotations of sordid and secret.
Why should it be underground?

Because the British weather is shit. :mrgreen:
Venusxxx

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Alex_Female
We have found the swinging scene far more open and liberal than naturism, probably because it is underground and not courting society at large.

22 Mar 2005

Quote by VenusnMars
Because the British weather is shit. :mrgreen:
Venusxxx

pmsl

22 Mar 2005

It's not Underground - I wish it were! :twisted:
(This is only funny if you know what I do for a living ;) )

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Ice Pie
It's not Underground - I wish it were! :twisted:
(This is only funny if you know what I do for a living ;) )

That's toothing not swinging lol

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Alex_Female
We have found the swinging scene far more open and liberal than naturism, probably because it is underground and not courting society at large.

The word underground bring up connotations of sordid and secret.
Why should it be underground?
Maybe you aren't old enough to have used the expression underground music. lol

I used underground to mean secret. I personally don't see a connotation with sordid when I use the term underground. The French Resistance in the war was called the underground...they were secret, not sordid.
Swinging should be secret for anyone who wishes to keep it secret. We definitely do not wish to share what we do with non-swingers. We never tried to convert anyone to naturism and we have no intention of converting anyone to swinging. However, anyone who wishes to try to educate the public is welcome to do so ... just don't involve us.
Swinging may become acceptable, but I don't think it will be in my lifetime. Although homosexuality has not been illegal, in most circumstances, since 1967, I wouldn't recommend 2 men or 2 women kissing in many pubs in this country.
When you mix in swinging circles it is easy to forget what society's view of what we think normal is.

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Rainbows
We have found the swinging scene far more open and liberal than naturism, probably because it is underground and not courting society at large.

The word underground bring up connotations of sordid and secret.
Why should it be underground?
Interesting ...... Do you think that swinging being underground is what some people actually enjoy? The thrill, perhaps, of the fact that swinging is not mainstream?
We definitely enjoy the risque nature of swinging. If swinging was mainstream it would lose the edge of naughtiness. We would still do it but it would lose the frisson of the forbidden. Isn't that one of the reasons that people go dogging, because it is forbidden?

22 Mar 2005

A very interesting thread biggrin

On the subject of giving excuses for wanting babysitters and such like - we just say we are going to a party with friends we have met over the internet - which is completely true. We don't feel the need to come out to our family about the fact the we're not monogamous because that is about our private sex lives, however we don't see why we should lie about where we are going or where we've met people.
Our families probably suspect a certain amount anyway as we don't sanitise our house everytime anyone comes round. If they find out then they find out - just like we don't make up complicated excuses to friends as to what we are doing or where we are going.
I don't think swinging will ever be mainstream - it takes a certain type of person to not find the sight of their partner performing sexual acts with someone else a threat. I also think part of the fun is that most people aren't doing it! wink

:twisted:
Roger the Dragon cool

22 Mar 2005

I agree with you Northwest, especially about the children.
We were recently featured in a TV program about the Naturist Lifestyle, so I've been outed there, but I am not that concerned.
I enjoy my lifestyle, and if it harms no one else, then I can not see why I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it, with out the likes of certain Sunday papers publishing stories about us.
John

22 Mar 2005

Quote by rogerthedragon
A very interesting thread
On the subject of giving excuses for wanting babysitters and such like - we just say we are going to a party with friends we have met over the internet - which is completely true. We don't feel the need to come out to our family about the fact the we're not monogamous because that is about our private sex lives, however we don't see why we should lie about where we are going or where we've met people.
Roger the Dragon

That`s pretty much what I say. Although I wouldn`t be at all surprised if my eldest puts two and two together, she knows I socialise through this site, and she knows what this site is for, and is complaining about the amount of latex I own lol

. I didn`t lie about how I found the site, which was for research purposes, but I didn`t tell her why I joined up either. I just stick to chatting about the social side. If she does or has figured it out, I hope that she`ll treat it like most other kids treat finding out about their parents sex life.....with acceptance, but without the desire to want to discuss the details! If she ever did, I`d lie, much in the same way as a parent would lie if a kid walked in on them whilst they are having sex.
`Daddy was just tickling me....honest!` :shock:
Venusxxx

22 Mar 2005

Quote by VenusnMars
..................... If she does or has figured it out, I hope that she`ll treat it like most other kids treat finding out about their parents sex life.....with acceptance, but without the desire to want to discuss the details! If she ever did, I`d lie, much in the same way as a parent would lie if a kid walked in on them whilst they are having sex.
`Daddy was just tickling me....honest!` :shock:
Venusxxx

This brings up another interesting point - why do we lie to our children about sex?
Roger cool

22 Mar 2005

Quote by rogerthedragon
..................... If she does or has figured it out, I hope that she`ll treat it like most other kids treat finding out about their parents sex life.....with acceptance, but without the desire to want to discuss the details! If she ever did, I`d lie, much in the same way as a parent would lie if a kid walked in on them whilst they are having sex.
`Daddy was just tickling me....honest!` :shock:
Venusxxx

This brings up another interesting point - why do we lie to our children about sex?
Roger cool

22 Mar 2005

Quote by VenusnMars
..................... If she does or has figured it out, I hope that she`ll treat it like most other kids treat finding out about their parents sex life.....with acceptance, but without the desire to want to discuss the details! If she ever did, I`d lie, much in the same way as a parent would lie if a kid walked in on them whilst they are having sex.
`Daddy was just tickling me....honest!` :shock:
Venusxxx

This brings up another interesting point - why do we lie to our children about sex?
Roger cool

Because it grosses both you and them out if we aretooopen about it with them?
Which is why, when my eldest two are being awkward about going to bed, I`ll casually announce, `well, if you WANT to stay down here whilst we are having sex........`
They soon bloody scoot off to bed! :twisted:
Actually, there is a serious behavioural answer to that, but I can`t get my semi-intelligent head on today.
Venusxxx
See I think it is another sign of conforming - kids wouldn't be grossed out by the knowledge that their parents had sex (I'm not talking about having them watch BTW before anyone gets too stressed here!) if society didn't tell everyone it is wrong.
This leads to kids growing up ashamed about sex and ashamed of their bodies. The problem is anyone who tries to be open with their kids is liable to be suspected of being some kind of pervert. Just the same as family naturists who are affectionate with each other. :shock: confused

Roger the Dragon 8-)

22 Mar 2005

Because it grosses both you and them out if we are too open about it with them?
Which is why, when my eldest two are being awkward about going to bed, I`ll casually announce, `well, if you WANT to stay down here whilst we are having sex........`
They soon bloody scoot off to bed! icon_
Actually, there is a serious behavioural answer to that, but I can`t get my semi-intelligent head on today.
.

Kids today are so much wiser than I was, and I think that they are also more tolerant.
John

22 Mar 2005

I think some people are seriously threatened by the swinging ethos. That's why I think they are so aggressive towards it on occasions. In the face of that is it a wonder that many who do swing keep it quiet?

22 Mar 2005

Quote by rogerthedragon
See I think it is another sign of conforming - kids wouldn't be grossed out by the knowledge that their parents had sex (I'm not talking about having them watch BTW before anyone gets too stressed here!) if society didn't tell everyone it is wrong.
This leads to kids growing up ashamed about sex and ashamed of their bodies. The problem is anyone who tries to be open with their kids is liable to be suspected of being some kind of pervert. Just the same as family naturists who are affectionate with each other. :shock:
Roger the Dragon

I think I have a pretty good balance with my kids. I`m open about sex, but not personal sex. I always run about naked in front of them (to protests), I`m the only one in the family who does, although my 9 (nearly 10) year old doesn`t seem to mind me seeing him naked as long as he`s wearing a bath!
Venusxxx

22 Mar 2005

Glad to see they still use the bath for protection.
John

22 Mar 2005

I drove home and missed the meat . Its already at the tailing off innuendo and jokes stage , but a good thread all the same . Thanks all for the good read :-)
G

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Alex_Female
why is swinging such a subject? Why is swinging sensationalised by the media?
Years ago, anyone who was having an extra marital affair was named and shamed. Over the last couple of decades sexual awareness has heightened, reliable contraception freely available, gay and lesbian relationships are more acceptable. Now infidelity appears to be no longer shocking, they move onto another subject, swinging.

Just as a hypothesis . . .
The history of religion and largely of nations has been to persecute any minority seen as a threat. Life is difficult and needs a lot of confidence in oneself, and one of the easy routes to getting that confidence is to find a way to feel â€˜superiorâ€™ to someone else. This is one of the many psychological forces that religion (as opposed to spirituality) makes use of.
When the Roman Catholic church absorbed the many different religions of the time of its inception, it identified most of the heretical â€˜godsâ€™ with â€˜saintsâ€™ of its own religion (eg â€˜Venusâ€™ becomes â€˜Maryâ€™ etc). The ones that gave the main problem were the priapic cults that encouraged freedom of sexual expression â€“ Dionysus, Priapus, Pan. If you control a personâ€™s sexual expression you control the person, and the priapic cults defeated this. So those gods became, instead, identified with the â€˜Devilâ€™ and â€˜evilâ€™. (These ideas are worked out with infinite detail in JG Fraserâ€™s Golden Bough and elsewhere.)
As minority groups again become more powerful they are harder to control, whether in defiance of the local head of state or the Vatican - some states throw off the yoke of religious rule for instance. The gay movement has become so strong and, linked to other factors, it is largely impossible for the churches to continue to portray it as â€˜evilâ€™. Bisexuality, or swinging, are hardly in the same league â€“ there aren't really any pressure groups of any strength and our numbers are still pretty limited.

Quote by Rainbows
The word underground bring up connotations of sordid and secret.
Why should it be underground?

Interesting ...... Do you think that swinging being underground is what some people actually enjoy? The thrill, perhaps, of the fact that swinging is not mainstream?
I think the British have long held a fascination with the â€˜forbiddenâ€™ haven't they? Compared to mainstream Europe, we even like our normal basic dating and sex to have an air of secrecy. Not sure if this is a reason why the Brits especially enjoy swinging (possibly applies more to dogging?) â€“ but thereâ€™s always peeps (here and abroad) who want to live by there own civilised rules, not those handed down meaninglessly by â€˜societyâ€™. I would rather swinging wasnâ€™t underground. Iâ€™d rather it was enjoyed by anyone that had the taste and sensitivity for it. But I donâ€™t think Iâ€™m well placed to start a â€˜pressure groupâ€™! cool

22 Mar 2005

Quote by edinbughchris
why is swinging such a subject? Why is swinging sensationalised by the media?
Years ago, anyone who was having an extra marital affair was named and shamed. Over the last couple of decades sexual awareness has heightened, reliable contraception freely available, gay and lesbian relationships are more acceptable. Now infidelity appears to be no longer shocking, they move onto another subject, swinging.

Just as a hypothesis . . .
The history of religion and largely of nations has been to persecute any minority seen as a threat. Life is difficult and needs a lot of confidence in oneself, and one of the easy routes to getting that confidence is to find a way to feel ‘superior’ to someone else. This is one of the many psychological forces that religion (as opposed to spirituality) makes use of.
When the Roman Catholic church absorbed the many different religions of the time of its inception, it identified most of the heretical ‘gods’ with ‘saints’ of its own religion (eg ‘Venus’ becomes ‘Mary’ etc). The ones that gave the main problem were the priapic cults that encouraged freedom of sexual expression – Dionysus, Priapus, Pan. If you control a person’s sexual expression you control the person, and the priapic cults defeated this. So those gods became, instead, identified with the ‘Devil’ and ‘evil’. (These ideas are worked out with infinite detail in JG Fraser’s Golden Bough and elsewhere.)
As minority groups again become more powerful they are harder to control, whether in defiance of the local head of state or the Vatican - some states throw off the yoke of religious rule for instance. The gay movement has become so strong and, linked to other factors, it is largely impossible for the churches to continue to portray it as ‘evil’. Bisexuality, or swinging, are hardly in the same league – there aren't really any pressure groups of any strength and our numbers are still pretty limited.

Quote by Rainbows
The word underground bring up connotations of sordid and secret.
Why should it be underground?

Interesting ...... Do you think that swinging being underground is what some people actually enjoy? The thrill, perhaps, of the fact that swinging is not mainstream?
I think the British have long held a fascination with the ‘forbidden’ haven't they? Compared to mainstream Europe, we even like our normal basic dating and sex to have an air of secrecy. Not sure if this is a reason why the Brits especially enjoy swinging (possibly applies more to dogging?) – but there’s always peeps (here and abroad) who want to live by there own civilised rules, not those handed down meaninglessly by ‘society’. I would rather swinging wasn’t underground. I’d rather it was enjoyed by anyone that had the taste and sensitivity for it. But I don’t think I’m well placed to start a ‘pressure group’! cool

OK Chris if you can now explain the offside rule to us Rugby types your work here will be done wink

the Laird

22 Mar 2005

Quote by LadyFeeBee
OK Chris if you can now explain the offside rule to us Rugby types your work here will be done
the Laird

PMSL!

22 Mar 2005

Quote by Silk and Big G
I drove home and missed the meat . Its already at the tailing off innuendo and jokes stage , but a good thread all the same . Thanks all for the good read :-)
G

I was mediocre today! lol

Venusxxx

22 Mar 2005

Quote by edinbughchris
OK Chris if you can now explain the offside rule to us Rugby types your work here will be done
the Laird

PMSL!

It was nothing really.................
Pint on Saturday night then??
the Laird