Teachers to oppose MoD ''propaganda''

28 Mar 2008

A tale of two young men ... My nephew and his friend.
Friend joined the Royal Marines Commandos - nephew didn't want to risk his life.
Friend went through basic training ... all the usual stuff. Now has money, has travelled (just came back from Norway), done all sorts of adventurous activities, is the epitomy of a young man getting a lot out of life. There is, of course, the chance he will be sent into a war zone.
Nephew - couldn't find work, slowly became downtrodden and disheartened, fell in with 'the wrong crowd' and died last June from a butane inhaling incident that went very wrong. He lived his last days in an urban 'war zone'.
There are no guarantees of a safe, secure life either side of the civvie / military border.

28 Mar 2008

Quote by Sugar-n-pom
A tale of two young men ... My nephew and his friend.
Friend joined the Royal Marines Commandos - nephew didn't want to risk his life.
Friend went through basic training ... all the usual stuff. Now has money, has travelled (just came back from Norway), done all sorts of adventurous activities, is the epitomy of a young man getting a lot out of life. There is, of course, the chance he will be sent into a war zone.

Nephew - couldn't find work, slowly became downtrodden and disheartened, fell in with 'the wrong crowd' and died last June from a butane inhaling incident that went very wrong. He lived his last days in an urban 'war zone'.
There are no guarantees of a safe, secure life either side of the civvie / military border.

God how awful what a damned damned waste! I feel the same. There certainly are no guarantees.

28 Mar 2008

Quote by noladreams30
So... I can understand what the OP is saying, in terms of if schools want the Armed Forces to be honest then they should equally expect other employers to be honest too.
Nola x

Thank you nola, this is the point i was trying to make

Quote by splendid_
Keep them out of school. It isn't a career with easily transferable skills like teaching or nursing. It is a way of life and it really doesn't suit a lot of people.

Not all of the armed force i agree comeout with transferable skill but there are sections with in the armed force that do have civilian qulification which are transferable and the tri-services are contemplating more

28 Mar 2008

Quote by Too Hot
*snippy*
This statement by the NUT is, in my opinion, obsece, disgusting and down right treacherous. Depite the personal risk I endured from 1979 to 1984 I am promoting the armed services as a worthwhile career choice to all three of my children because the very experience will give them the life skills that 99% of the NUT simply do not have.*snippy*

Curious to know where you got your figure of 99% from? And are you saying that just because some teachers have gone through the education system to university level, that they have no life skills? Teaching is a job, where you earn money to pay bills and live. Teachers live in homes like any other profession - they have relationships and children, they drive, they go out, etc. Do these not require life skills?

28 Mar 2008

I want to quote somebody who knew a lot more about war than me, Wifred Owen, he died, in action, one week before armistice. What a wooly minded old namby pamby he must have been. It helps to explain to me what some of these concerned people are concerned about.
DULCE ET DECORUM EST
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!-An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
The old lie refers to a latin quote, "It is sweet and noble to die for your country."

28 Mar 2008

When our children are being allowed to leave schools with low reading & writing skills & no exams to there name!!!
How dare the members of this union deny some of these young people that they failed the chance of doing something with there life?
We never heard the NUT complain about the forces in schools before the current actions we are engaged in? which makes it sound almost political.
Who asks the forces into the schools in the 1st place?

29 Mar 2008

Quote by Freckledbird

Both, and i know they haven't appered on recruitment material but i think it's total unexceptible that are people asking for that to be put on recruitment material, if your going to do that for the MOD then why not ever other employer

I think what they mean is that if the Armed Forces are going to recruit in schools, then they need to be truthful about what the kids should expect - and not have it glorified. I have been to both my daughter's and to my son's post-16 evenings and at neither of them did I see any other employer attempt to glorify what they do. The Armed Forces, however, did. They promote the forces way of life as being exciting, opening doors etc., when in reality it's school leavers going to fight wars. My son was starting to be sucked in, until he heard of a friend's cousin (aged 17 and a half) who had been killed. That is the reality. You don't get that working as a manager at Tesco.
You would have to be a bit of an idiot if you did not know what the armed forces did, and that we are at " war " at the moment. In my school days you always had the army come in to schools. I did not hear anyone saying then about not joining the army, as you would be sent to Northern Ireland and be shot at...then again we did not have the pc brigade around then though. And that is where the problem lies.
I am not sure about this " war " that is going on at the moment but... I am glad that the people of today, who do not agree with any wars, were not around in the second world war, as we would have lost and God knows what kind of life we would all be living now? We need armed forces to protect us and I am proud of anyone who joins up. They all know the risks of joining and that could mean going to war, but I saw those guys in the Sky One programme with Ross Kemp. What guys and what heroes they are.
If we had no armed forces at all would that be better for some? Its not about peeling potatoes it is about protecting your country, and I am proud and honoured to have those guys and ladies in the armed forces.
I feel that employers do make jobs seem better, if they did not who would want to work there? The army is no different. If we can have others in schools putting their views forward, then I for one cannot see any reason why the army cannot as well. lol

30 Mar 2008

I am an ex Royal Marine, and proud of it. I served in Ulster several times, and the Falklands conflict, and other places we're not allowed to talk about.
I was shot, and blown up by landmine, but I would still do it all again if I had the chance, best oppo's you'll ever make, blokes who'd give their life for yours - this is the sort of thing that goes on, and generally gets overlooked by some celebrity 'goings on' or another MP having an affair... they make better front page headlines for the red tops.....

Quote by Cut and Paste.......... From The Sunday Times
March 30, 2008
Lance Corporal Matt Croucher hurls himself onto Taliban grenade
One man’s heroism saved the lives of his patrol – and left him with nothing more than a bloody nose
Lance Corporal Matt Croucher

Stephen Grey in Helmand
A Royal Marine in southern Afghanistan threw himself onto an exploding grenade to save the lives of his patrol.
Miraculously, Lance Corporal Matt Croucher, a marine reservist from Birmingham, survived the blast with little injury when his rucksack and body armour took the force of the blast. He is expected to receive one of the highest awards for gallantry.
The story of his courage emerged last week in interviews with marines occupying a forward operating base near Sangin in Helmand province. They are preparing to leave after serving for six months at the centre of some of the fiercest fighting in Afghanistan. The outpost, Forward Operating Base Inkerman, is better known to troops as "FOB Incoming".
Croucher's action occurred just before dawn on February 9, as the reconnaissance troop from 40 Commando, operating to the south of Sangin, was searching a compound it suspected was being used for making bombs to attack British and Afghan troops.
Walking in the darkness among a group of four men, Croucher stepped into a tripwire that pulled the pin from a boobytrap grenade. His patrol commander, Corporal Adam Lesley, remembered Croucher's shout of: "Grenade!"
As others dived for cover, Croucher, 24, did something nobody expected. He lay down on the grenade to smother the blast. Lesley got on the ground, another man got behind a wall, but the last member of the patrol was still standing in the open when the grenade went off.
"My reaction was, 'My God this can't be real'," said Lesley. "Croucher had simply lain back and used his day sack to blunt the force of the explosion. You would expect nine out of 10 people to die in that situation."
Then they waited. "It felt like a lifetime," said Lesley. When the grenade went off it blew Croucher's rucksack more than 30ft and sent a burning radio battery fizzing into the air. As the noise died down, one of the patrol, Marine Scott Easter, was standing "just completely frozen" and untouched. Croucher was in deep shock but, apart from a bloody nose, had few injuries. "He had shrapnel in his helmet, in the plate of his body armour, but he was basically okay," said Lesley. "His day sack had taken the blast."
Croucher told the News of the World: "All I could hear was a loud ringing and the faint sound of people shouting 'are you ok? Are you ok?'
"Then I felt one of the lads giving me a top to toe check. My head was ringing. Blood was streaming from my nose. It took 30 seconds before I realised I was definitely not dead," he added.
The troop commander, Captain Dan Venables, said they decided to exploit the incident. "I made the decision that after the grenade went off, the Taliban would come to see what had happened. So we lay in wait and ambushed them."
Croucher's actions prompted his colleagues to pass a citation to the Commanding Officer of 40 Commando, Lieutenant Colonel Stuart Birrell, to recommend him for the Victoria Cross.
"It's a pretty unusual thing but the lads put me forward for the VC themselves.
"It's entirely out of my hands. But if it was to happen it would be a massive honour, not just for me but for the regiment and all my comrades,” he told the News of the World.
Yesterday, fellow marines were reluctant to play up the incident. "Such has been the ferocity of the fight 40 Commando has endured these past few months, this has been one remarkable incident among many," said one senior Royal Marines officer as they prepared to hand over to the Parachute Regiment. Their experience highlights the danger faced every week by many of the 7,700 troops in Afghanistan. Inkerman, an exposed hilltop compound, is a heavily contested position.
Since the marines arrived last October it has been attacked 57 times, including twice while I was there with the photographer Nick Cornish. Inkerman stands on the edge of what the military call the "green zone", a fertile strip of land along the Helmand River which, in front of the base and for nearly 20 miles north, is almost entirely in Taliban hands.
The garrison's role is to draw enemy fire from Sangin three miles to the south — a job similar to what Sergeant James Liepa, 30, did for his men in January when his patrol was ambushed. Liepa and seven fellow marines were pinned down behind a bank of mud by Taliban fighters they could not spot. Liepa tried to get a bearing on where the gunfire was coming from but as the rounds cracked around him, he realised it was impossible.
"They were literally trying to shoot my hand off," recalled Liepa. "I thought, 'If we stay here more than a couple of minutes we'll be dead'." Liepa told his comrades he was going to stand up and make himself the prime target. "That meant I was going to jump and run so all firing points would shoot at me," he said. The idea was to give everyone else a chance to spot where the Taliban were firing from — and return fire. Liepa, from Barnstaple, Devon, gave his men a 30-second countdown. Then he got up and the bullets flew.
Liepa's bravery turned the battle around. "There are a few people who would do something like that, but not many," said Corporal George Alford, 27, a marine who was there. "The truth is that someone had to do it or we'd have been killed."
Liepa says he had no choice. "For me to tell someone else to stand up and run while everyone shoots at them just felt like sending someone to their death, so I decided to do it myself."
On his second step Liepa fell face first. As he did so, arcs of fire from at least three Taliban machineguns met above his head. "I lay there half a second and thought, 'They know where I am, I'm dead,' but I got up and ran again and the bullets were everywhere, bar me, which was nice." His men drove off the Taliban and all got out alive.
Interviewing the marines of Alpha Company, 40 Commando, it became clear the toll has been heavy: several serious injuries and the death of a much-respected corporal, Damian "Dee" Mulvihill, 32.
We met them after stepping into the choking, hot dust from a helicopter ramp. Their home was a sandy, square compound of flapping canvas and thick walls made from wire and cloth cages packed with earth.
The marines sleep under the thin protection of parachute silk or roofs made from a patchwork of ponchos. Urinals are metal tubes hammered into the sand.
We did not have to wait long to witness the dangers. The day after our arrival, Inkerman's mortars were booming away at Taliban men in front of the base. Apache helicopters strafed ditches where the enemy was hiding.
Two days later we joined an Alpha Company patrol as it headed north in Viking armoured vehicles. The plan was to head into the desert and then sweep back into the "green zone" for a surprise attack. The Taliban were waiting in ambush.
The first clue of imminent combat was the sight of men, women and children fleeing their homes as the marines approached a ridge-line. "The Taliban are actually pretty concerned to get civilians out of the way," said Captain Ian Preece, second-in-command of Alpha. Then, with marine snipers and reconnaissance troops dismounted, the enemy opened fire with a volley of machinegun fire and rocket-propelled grenades. One struck an old fort on the hilltop where Liepa and a team of snipers were hiding.
The response was ferocious. Machinegunners on the Vikings opened fire, a French jet dropped a 500lb bomb on a compound and artillery back at Inkerman fired a barrage of shells against a tree line.
Next came the Apaches came circling overhead. The Taliban, who hate these helicopters, lay low, challenging the British to descend from the ridge. With their ambush so well prepared, Major Adrian Morley, Alpha's commander, declined the offer.
Twice more the Taliban struck — a bang to the right and a cloud of black smoke announced another close by. Then a rocket came whizzing over the ridge, landing behind us. The Apaches struck back with rockets.
However, for the marines at Inkerman, named after a British victory in the Crimean war, the most ferocious fighting took place five months ago. Alpha company calls November 9 their "9/11". Returning from a foot patrol in the green zone, the marines were ambushed in open ground and ran for the shelter of a compound. It was a trap. Both the entrance and the roof were raked by enemy fire. Four men were wounded and had to be evacuated by helicopter and the troops were able to withdraw only under a barrage of artillery and mortar fire.
Marine Gary Ogden, 26, a company medic, remembers lying behind a mud bank when he felt a tug on his leg. "I glanced back at the compound entrance," he said, "and I could see a figure screaming 'medic'." The man was Captain Paul Britton, the officer who co-ordinated artillery, mortars, Apaches and air strikes. "I remember rounds hitting the doorway all around him and wondering why they weren't hitting him," said Ogden.
With the air filled with the crack and thump of bullets, Ogden charged into the compound. Propped up on the floor was Corporal Simon "Sy" Greening, with a bullet wound to his chest. Ogden patched him up, but soon there was another cry of "medic".
This time, an RPG had blasted two men from the compound roof. One, Marine David Fletcher, had serious wounds to his legs. Ogden stabilised Fletcher, but as he did so, he noticed bullets that had come straight through the open door were still thumping into walls around him.
"As I was chatting to Sy, an RPG streaked over and arched down into the compound and hit the wall I was facing. Then I saw a body drop."
It was a signaller, Corporal Dave Watts, with a shrapnel wound. Meanwhile, a huddle appeared around another man. Britton had at last been hit, but despite the shrapnel lodged in his arm, the captain opted to stay and fight rather than be evacuated.
While the group was holed up, a troop of Alpha company was dashing south through the cornfields and ditches, trying to secure a landing zone for a rescue helicopter. With the entrance under constant fire, a "mousehole" was blown in the compound wall to make an escape route. For a long time, a twin-bladed Chinook rescue helicopter had been circling round waiting to land.
"The was holding off because it just looked at a storm of rounds going in and out," said Ogden. "Mortars were going down and artillery was smashing the place. The Apaches were waiting to come in."
As the Chinook finally dived down to land, its two Apache escorts swerved ahead and rocketed the tree lines. "It was like a scene from Apocalypse Now," said one marine watching from Inkerman.
For the Chinook, the continuing gun battle made it a hot landing zone, a helicopter pilot's worst fear.
"The Apaches asked if the landing zone was secure," another marine recalled. "We said it was as secure as it could be."
On the ground with four casualties to evacuate, Ogden recalls a doctor running down the ramp of the helicopter and having to be dragged into cover as bullets streaked by. Without the daring rescue, said Ogden, the two most seriously injured, Greening and Fletcher, who are now recovering well in Britain, might not be alive.
When the helicopters pulled away, the troops began to pull back to the base, covered to the rear by a barrage of mortar and artillery fire. When they returned, it was dark.
The next day, Ogden and other medics were back in action as the Taliban began a month of ferocious attacks with enemy fighters coming within 100 yards of the base. Three men were injured, blown backwards and raked with shrapnel as a rocket struck the front of their firing position on the base's walls. November and December saw more than 33 attacks on the base. Commanders believed the Taliban were concentrating attacks on bases such as Inkerman to divert the British from their manoeuvres to take the Taliban stronghold of Musa Qala further north.
Since then attacks have been lighter, but new threats have emerged, such as a spree of mines laid nearby. One killed Mulvihill, from near Plymouth, who was 32 and engaged to be married, when it detonated under his Viking. A few days later a marine sniper team exacted vengeance. Operating at night, the group lay in wait in old Soviet hilltop trenches, and fired a missile at two men laying mines. The marines, now preparing to leave, realise it will be difficult to adjust to home. Among the hardest things to explain to their families will be what made them act as they did.
Liepa said: "All that happens is you look left and right and think, 'We're dead unless you do something now'," he said. "You just do what your brain tells you is the right thing."

That said, what is wrong with the MoD giving careers advice? The Army alone has over 270 trades with at least C&G qualifications, let alone the advanced technical trades available in the RN or RAF - an excellent career choice for any young person, male or female.

30 Mar 2008

Quote by sword-stileto
When our children are being allowed to leave schools with low reading & writing skills & no exams to there name!!!
How dare the members of this union deny some of these young people that they failed the chance of doing something with there life?We never heard the NUT complain about the forces in schools before the current actions we are engaged in? which makes it sound almost political.
Who asks the forces into the schools in the 1st place?

Good points.
I feel that the NUT and the teachers who have said this, have NO right to dictate as to what they want or dont want taught in their schools. They get TOLD what to teach by the Government...that is their job!
As I said in an earlier thread, let the teachers teach and not to get involved with political crap..leave that to the politicians. If the armed forces are to be banned from classrooms does that also mean that everyone else who comes to schools to tell children about jobs or religion, should also be banned too? No it wont as it seems its " lets knock the army" year. How must those soldiers feel having to listen to this rubbish? Talk about kick them in the teeth, when they need our help and our support the most. mad

I have never served in the army but I know that they are there for a reason, and they have my full support, and they should have everybody elses too!! lol

They do a dangerous and at times crap job, but thank God there are people who want to do it, God help us if we had no armed forces!!

30 Mar 2008

Hmm,
I was dismayed to hear about this, my thoughts are what has it got to do with the teachers whatever recruitment takes place within a School? I'm sure that most people know exactly what the Services offer and expect, even if it is glammed up (it is maybe not pink and fluffy enough).
The last thing we need is to alienate the Services from schools, is it not enough that there are places in the UK that are effectively NOGO areas to the military.
Rant over, lol
Howie

30 Mar 2008

ever job has its down sides, so does not having a job.
at recruitement drives you are bound to want to be seen in the best light.
i dont think the forces should be excluded from schools, yes there are aspects of the job that are not rosey, but then ive seen the ads for teachers, social care etc etc, they dont show the shitty side either.
understandable they may be a higher risk of death with the forces in the current climet,((not sure the ratio compared to say how many fishermen and how many deaths to how many forces personal and deaths)) but surely there are better prospects then being on the dole or cleaning loos? ( i am not disrespecting anyone who finds them selves on the dole or cleaning loos, what im saying , from a very functionalist point of view is every job has a vital role.
to exclude the mod from schools is unfair, every young adult should have every job opp pointed out to them.
wait for the next thread calling for enlisting ( sorry think thats what its called when guys had to do so many years in forces )
xxxxxxxxx fem xxxxxxxxxx

30 Mar 2008

Some excellent comments.
If we want to actively discourage young people from doing something based purely on the risks associated with it then perhaps we should have hard facts before doing so.
The death toll for British troops in Irag for the period between 2003 and now stands at 150 (tragic). The death toll on British roads for 2007 alone is 3,000. So our kids stand a far greater chance of being wiped out on the road than they do if they were to join up. Perhaps we shouldn't be as bothered by recruitment drives by the forces in schools as we should be by advertisments for cars.

30 Mar 2008

Quote by Sugar-n-pom
Some excellent comments.
If we want to actively discourage young people from doing something based purely on the risks associated with it then perhaps we should have hard facts before doing so.
The death toll for British troops in Irag for the period between 2003 and now stands at 150 (tragic). The death toll on British roads for 2007 alone is 3,000. So our kids stand a far greater chance of being wiped out on the road than they do if they were to join up. Perhaps we shouldn't be as bothered by recruitment drives by the forces in schools as we should be by advertisments for cars.

Super post.

30 Mar 2008

just thought I'd point out that there are far fewer people in the armed forces than there are in Britain.
It's a numbers thing.
lp
edit: gawd that was picky of me... I haven't even read the thread.... excuse me

1 Apr 2008

It strikes me as a little perverse that the teachers who oppose this recruiting are drawn from the same facet of society whose freedom of speech was defended by the very people that they seek to denounce.
I am neither "anti-teachers" or pro-military, but I quite enjoy the thought of living in a free country and that there are people out there who are willing to fight for my freedom to do so. Perhaps the teachers who do not subscribe to these views (held by probably most of the population) should emigrate to North Korea or China and enjoy the freedoms that those states offer.
In any event - the schools are a fertile ground for the recruitment of soldiers - the army needs young impressionable people, that are fit, intelligent and capable of being indoctrinated into a military lifestyle.
What is wrong with that? This is the real world and soldiers need to be recruited from somewhere - it is no use taking some burnt out mid-thirties nobody who will argue with everything that the army sends his way.
Keep up the recruiting at schools is what I say.

1 Apr 2008

No country is a 'free' country if it needs loss of life to protect it. It is the cost of freedom, and can be accounted for in many ways.
We would not have the life we have without trade and the means to ensure it continues to exist. This means that some countries are 'invaded' albeit temporarily to ensure that trade continues to flourish for our benefit.
One really does have to choose whether or not to agree with this. Its a choice, but one needs to be aware that it is how things are done.
I am okay with my decision which is to support the need for military action where its needed. Subsequently, recruiting needs to continue. I always thought the forces had their own recruiting days at school, or has that been stopped at some point?

1 Apr 2008

Quote by duncanlondon
No country is a 'free' country if it needs loss of life to protect it. It is the cost of freedom, and can be accounted for in many ways.
We would not have the life we have without trade and the means to ensure it continues to exist. This means that some countries are 'invaded' albeit temporarily to ensure that trade continues to flourish for our benefit.
One really does have to choose whether or not to agree with this. Its a choice, but one needs to be aware that it is how things are done.
I am okay with my decision which is to support the need for military action where its needed. Subsequently, recruiting needs to continue. I always thought the forces had their own recruiting days at school, or has that been stopped at some point?

A tempered and wise post.
The forces do have their recruitment drives in schools (I can remember being visited by the Army when I was about to leave school).
It is these visits that certain teachers (not all of them) want to have stopped.

1 Apr 2008

(Apologies long Post/Rant)
Ok, This is my first forum post as i feel quite strongly on this subject.
As someone who only 2 weeks ago was caught by a rocket explosion outside Garmsir in Afghanistan, I feel that i am somewhat qualified to discuss this subject.
Firstly i will start off by pointing out that the armed forces exists for the purpose of protecting our great nation, and also its interests. One of the things this includes is the prevention of terrorist attacks on British Soil. The best way for us to do this is to take them out at their source, i.e. their training grounds and financial centres (drugs).
Just working through the thread, a few points that have make my little ears prick up.
The article in question says that the army glamorise what we do, and indeed we do, we advertise the incredible travel opportunities that the army gives, I myself have been to Belize, California, Canada, Gibraltar and Norway all in the last 3 years, not to mention Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army also makes a point of the fun stuff we do as well, and that is also true, i am a qualified Recreational Diver, Canoeist and Sports parachutist and have been on many other adventure training trips, such as climbing, hill walking etc. This is the good side of what we do.
Now, granted we do not show films of british soldiers getting shot in our ads, but we do show people on patrol in the sand pit. We never say that it is safe to be a british soldier, when you go to the recruiting office, you are warned that it is dangerous, and before you actually take the oath to the queen you are required to sign a document stating that you understand you may get injured or killed. Also in the same document you acknowledge that you may have to go to war and that you may have to kill another human being.
Also added to this is, you would have to be a complete moron not to realise that being in the army carries with it the inherent risk of death, any Private Ryan/Band of Brothers viewer should know this. If indeed you don't know this fact then you haven't done your research and the army probably isn't for you.
On a side note,
Splendid, it is unfortunate that you did not seem to enjoy your time in the army, and that you did not seem to enjoy the more menial tasks that you had to endure, but those tasks exist for a reason, that reason being discipline. Having been under contact with the men under my command, i am personally glad that in barracks i made them strong of mind through the painting of kerbs and the polishing of cannons, because that way they will do what is required of them and will not falter in their mental strength during an extremely frightening time.
Also your comment about praying on the most vulnerable in society, well all i can say is that if you had ever been in contact with any of the young men under my command, the youngest of which is 17, then you would see that these are not vulnerable men, but they are lions and I am proud to have stood beside every one of them.
I will finish my rant by saying that it I am glad to hear the majority of people who have responded are proud to have us serve them and stand behind us.

1 Apr 2008

Fair play to you fella hope all is ok and that you are getting the support you need. Sure you are. :rose:

1 Apr 2008

Quote by NewportCouple
(Apologies long Post/Rant)
Ok, This is my first forum post as i feel quite strongly on this subject............

Great first post too Newport :thumbup:

1 Apr 2008

Quote by NewportCouple
On a side note,
Splendid, it is unfortunate that you did not seem to enjoy your time in the army, and that you did not seem to enjoy the more menial tasks that you had to endure, but those tasks exist for a reason, that reason being discipline. Having been under contact with the men under my command, i am personally glad that in barracks i made them strong of mind through the painting of kerbs and the polishing of cannons, because that way they will do what is required of them and will not falter in their mental strength during an extremely frightening time.
Also your comment about praying on the most vulnerable in society, well all i can say is that if you had ever been in contact with any of the young men under my command, the youngest of which is 17, then you would see that these are not vulnerable men, but they are lions and I am proud to have stood beside every one of them.

If you had read my post properly you will notice that I said nothing about 'not enjoying' my time. I did actually say I didn't regret it. (pedantic me? oh yeah)
what I also said was that it wasn't for everyone.
As for preying on the most vulnerable. I didn't indicate that those who made it to their units were the most vulnerable. What I mentioned was the 'recruiters' targeting the most vulnerable.
I also said that it was a way of life. One you seem to relish,
and yes, you would have to be a complete moron to misunderstand that killing someone is something the armed forces do.I can't remember practising that in basic training tho', I certainly didn't cover it in trade training. I also didn't look in depth at suicides, sexual harassment, , bullying, alcoholism, drug use, to name but a few of the delectable things that were offered alongside the other 'training'.
I was certainly proud of my time and my service as well as you and yours. I don't agree with the shitty, crappy war tho' but that is a side issue. ( I am a committed and active pacifist so forgive me my retrospective learnings)
Don't patronise me and don't attempt to kid me that your unit and those 'under your command' are any more or any less than any other unit. Because I may just pull out my own sandbag and swing my own lantern about the stories of all whom I served with and the things I saw. Not least the people I support daily that are also no longer 'in' who are still dealing with the things they saw and did.
It is a career and it is for those who really understand what they can be getting into.
I can assure you that the 'majority' that you speak of here are just more vocal. There are more quiet people who have similar opinions to me that recruiting for the forces should be done away from schools.
You have submitted a great first post and you are very welcome here.(not that I own the site or anything, I have just ranted at you and want you to know that it aint personal.)
enjoy :thumbup:

1 Apr 2008

Firstly, Thanks to Tigerlily, i am not that badly injured, just a bit of lung damage that will get better soon (from the pressure from the explosion) and an eye that weeps blood from time to time.
Again I will stipulate that the only reason that i am responding to this is because of the strength of feeling that i have about what a good job the boys and girls are doing.
My apologies for misunderstanding your original post, I assumed that in the way you expressed your lack of enthusiasm for the menial tasks required in the forces and the way you pointed out the flaws (Your comments about bullying etc) in whatever Unit or training establishment you were at that this meant you did not enjoy it. Lack of regret and enjoyment are two very different things.
You say that you didn't cover killing people in your basic training? just out of curiousity what did you cover? For when i went through the system, firstly 10 years ago as a private soldier then 3 years ago at Sandhurst, both times i covered bayonet drills, shooting, the morality of killing etc. to be honest, take the killing part of training away and all you are left with is walking really smartly and putting twigs in your hair.
I was sorry to hear that you were in the unfortunate position to have come across the aftermath of a suicide, an experience that no one should have to go through, but i have to point out that suicide rates in the armed forces are much lower than for many other professions.
On the subject of drugs, most units get a random drugs test every few months and never once have i been in a unit were someone has been found to be on drugs. I have heard of a few people who have been caught and removed from the system, but this is few and far between. On the flip side, i have an old friend who went to Uni as i joined the army, he is an insurance something or other in London, he is constantly passing on stories of drug related occurances in his workmates.
I can't comment on sexual harrassment or , except as far as to say i have never experienced it in 10 years under the colours. And on the subject of Bullying, it is known to happen from time to time, and it is always stamped out as soon as it rears its ugly head.
My apologies if it seemed like i was trying to patronise you or say that my unit was any better than any other, i merely used my lads as an example and i am sure that no matter what unit i was in it would be the same.
Lastly I am sorry to hear about your friends who are still suffering what i assume to be the psychological effects of war, it affects different people in different ways. However i would be surprised if any of those friends would advocate the publication of the damaging report that started this thread or indeed if they would be happy that the nation was not 100% united in support of those of us who are still out there or who have to go back soon.

1 Apr 2008

I obviously should have been posted to your unit and had your training.
I was being facetious about the learning to kill in training. The actual shooting of a live person doesn't happen and that is my point. All the targets (moving or otherwise) do not prepare a person for the real thing.
It it had been just the aftermath of one suicide it would have been less harrowing, thankyou for your concern. As for other professions. I can't comment apart from any apart from those that I have experienced. I have yet to cut anyone down or watch someone's mental health deteriorate to the point that they attempt suicide several times before being 'wheeled off to the shrink' in either of the two companies I have worked for since. But hey, I must be as lucky as you clearly are now.
Random drug tests.... blergh. I just won't go there.
As for my 'friends' I don't have any friends who are ex-services. (Apart from my son's father who has just got out and I am have to say that he wouldn't agree with people being recruited from schools - I did check before posting my original post as he served longer than me and I wanted another perspective) The people I am talking about are the people I support professionally.
Bullying happens 'from time to time' are you in a regiment called utopia ?
rolleyes

Right. I am off to bed and I shall stay out of this thread now. I feel equally as passionately about keeping recruitment out of schools.
Take care and I hope you recover quickly.

4 Apr 2008

You will never have a balanced argument about recruiting in schools where one proponent is a serving soldier and the other is a dedicated pacifist.
I tend to agree with the army officer though - recrioting in schools should continue.
I am not taking anything away from the doctrine of pacifism, but when the enemy appear at the UK shores, I am not entirely convinced that a load of left-wing vegan minority group representing cymbal playing hippies sat in a circle siging Kum-by-yah will be an adequate deterrent.
A bit sarcastic perhaps but you take my point.

4 Apr 2008

Quote by HimandHer
It strikes me as a little perverse that the teachers who oppose this recruiting are drawn from the same facet of society whose freedom of speech was defended by the very people that they seek to denounce.
I am neither "anti-teachers" or pro-military, but I quite enjoy the thought of living in a free country and that there are people out there who are willing to fight for my freedom to do so. Perhaps the teachers who do not subscribe to these views (held by probably most of the population) should emigrate to North Korea or China and enjoy the freedoms that those states offer.
In any event - the schools are a fertile ground for the recruitment of soldiers - the army needs young impressionable people, that are fit, intelligent and capable of being indoctrinated into a military lifestyle.
What is wrong with that? This is the real world and soldiers need to be recruited from somewhere - it is no use taking some burnt out mid-thirties nobody who will argue with everything that the army sends his way.
Keep up the recruiting at schools is what I say.

So you are in favour of a free country and freedom of speech as long as no one says anything you disagree with. If they do have a different opinion from yours they should "emigrate to North Korea or China".
Hypocrisy lives!