the death penalty.

14 Feb 2008

Quote by Seven_up
If, in the future you become a victim then i would like to hear what you have to say about the words you have written.
Rob

Maybe they would'nt change confused

That's splendid's opinion and you must respect her opinion as im sure she respect's yours :thumbup:
louise xx

14 Feb 2008

Quote by Seven_up
If, in the future you become a victim then i would like to hear what you have to say about the words you have written.
Rob

Can I say this any clearer. my life history is none of your business. I can categorically tell you that I hold my views irregardless. cool

splendid

14 Feb 2008

Quote by Seven_up
So called do gooders and defenders of ferral anti social types profess to hold liberal attitudes.

:wave2: Hi, that'll be me then... a so-called do gooder who doesn't just profess to hold, but indeed holds very publically and proudly, liberal attitudes.
But please, don't presume that I (or indeed any of my 'so-called' liberal friends who are anti the death penalty) have not suffered at the hands of criminals or indeed had family members or friends who haven't suffered. That's the point of principles isn't it? That they don't waiver even in the face of opposition? To paraphrase Maggie... this lady ain't for turning - the death penalty (imho) will never be right. An eye for an eye is NOT the solution.
Nola x

14 Feb 2008

Quote by JTS
There is a massive shortage of organ donors in this country, yet we have paedophiles, child-murderers and the like eating, drinking, enjoying tv etc all of which is paid for by our taxes which could be going in to healthcare, and much more for genuine, decent human beings. I say, put these animals down immediately after conviction and harvest their body parts for transplant. Use what crap is left for land-fill.
SlurpySarah xx

so would you accept an organ from a serial killer if you needed it?
Abso-bloody-lutely! IMO It's their mind/personality that caused them to commit the horrendous crime, and those parts can't be transplanted. The rest of them is just offal, but could be of use to somebody if not just for research.
Problem: Many of the above criminals did "it" while also using drugs and alcohol. Many will have been iv drug users, a high-risk category.
Still, you can always screen for communicable disease.
Since many organs are of no use for transplant if more than a few minutes has elapsed since death, that also raises another problem.
You remember the saying:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller

Now, while I have no intention of associating the emotion in the above statement with child murderers, I can mention this:
Today you would execute people for those crimes, and use their organs to prolong the life of others. That will immediately call a halt to those crimes. There is a sci-fi novel along those lines (and some novellas sporned from it) where murderers body parts were used for transplant. Murder stopped. So, failing to pay tax became a capital offence. Tax fiddling stopped. So it ended-up with people being executed for crossing the road in the wrong place.
In the end people started being kidnapped for organs for transplant (which has already happened in this time/world)
Where is the line drawn ?
Bearing in mind, we already HAVE a government that is already using the fear of crime to remove peoples rights ?
good points jtf,you only have to look at china where they have capital punishment for relatively minor offences,alongside being in the forefront of bodyparts for sale,even down to the hair for wigs and the skin for collagen injections.

14 Feb 2008

Just a few points
Prisoners released may still be guilty, unless they have a retrial they do not become innocent. The guilty are sometimes released because their conviction has been ruled unsafe, this does not mean they are innocent! It only means that a witness or evidence is now in question.
It is possible that even when a terminal penalty has been issued, it can be retested and set aside. The US have appealing prisoners on death row, many will die before the sentence is carried out.
China have a harvest program there are still murders.
How many have walked out of prison and ended another life or again and again. Repeat offences do not accrue if the offender is dead. Death is not a deterrent, it is a prevention.

14 Feb 2008

Quote by Seven_up
If, in the future you become a victim then i would like to hear what you have to say about the words you have written.
Rob

The point is I feel that it is doing what is right.
I have problems at the moment with kids between the ages of 10 and 15 doing things such as egging the house maybe 3-4 x a week letting my car tyres down on a regular basis, stoning the windows through breaking wing mirrors and a rear windscreen on my car. Oh and as recently as three 15/16!! year olds punching my 10 year oldson to the floor and beating him Now i really really want them to haveand think they deserve a good kicking!
The difference is I know thats not right! its me being a victim and emotional. Though I get little help from our local plod I know eventually I will get help. and would beating those kids help? Very very temporarily I suppose confused

now i'll put in the crap i was going to before i typed that lol

Isn't it a shame that the words 'do gooder' have come to mean something other than a do'er of good. I have feelings and if my family were affected by something horrid then i would want revenge, yes probably a violent solution. No doubt if it was of the sort of crimes alluded to here then i would probably want to 'rip the mother f**kers head off with my hands and teeth' Fortunately I have not been put in to that extreme mental state.
I believe ferverently that society becomes less violent with the generations. That is not to say there are not sporadic episodes of atrocity that happen and are totally incomprehensible to me.
The Law must be above the people and not the people above the rule of law. There are times we know when the law appears to be an ass but it works i am sure for the common good. One mistake in capital punishment is too many.
My parents and grandparents generation took away the law of capital punishment. They surely were less of a "do-gooder" lot then what with Alf Garnett, Carry on movies, Dick Emery, Love thy neighbour, Rising Damp etc. Ok so you might say we have people now such as Catherine Tate and Jimmy Carr.
The thing is WE know they are funny because of the shock element. Our parents didn't. So the idea that its the "do-gooder" element that doesn't give credence to capital punishment is wrong, its the generations upto and culminating in the hedonistic (some would say) 1960's.
The great thing is that while the debate is still going on then that also means that things are thought about and discussed and not left to 'just the ay it is' So at least having different opinions is positive in a way.
I should of started a 'WTF you on about Lost' thread. I apologise but I do find this topic really interesting

14 Feb 2008

probably the most important safeguard in our legal system is that it is up to the prosecution to prove their someone is found guilty on unsafe evidence then it is only right they go free. the police then have the opportunity to try again or not if they cant get sound fact that "everyone"knows a particular person "must be guilty" doesn`t mean they shouldn`t have a fair trial.

14 Feb 2008

Quote by annejohn
probably the most important safeguard in our legal system is that it is up to the prosecution to prove their someone is found guilty on unsafe evidence then it is only right they go free. the police then have the opportunity to try again or not if they cant get sound fact that "everyone"knows a particular person "must be guilty" doesn`t mean they shouldn`t have a fair trial.

Absolutely :thumbup:

14 Feb 2008

All those people hear who are calling for capital punishment i would like to ask you a question
Could you be the one who does the deed ie give the injection, pull the lever, tie the noose.
It all easy to say i would do this and i would do that, but trust me thats all word and word mean nothing they are empty.
Remember in order for a conviction there must be beyond reasonable doubt.
And if it is such a deterrent then how come there is still crimes commited in countrys that still use it
Yes the punishment should fit the crime and i agree that prsions should have everything but the basic rights removed.
Now here's a radical idea and that is how about we use the prisoner we have to work out why people do this in the first place, what is it that drive people to murder, ,mollest etc etc surly these are the question we should be asking not bring back the death penalty as i have said before it's an easy route for the perpetrator, but not nessecery an easy option for the victim

14 Feb 2008

what punishment would you advocate for this guy??

14 Feb 2008

Quote by Bonedigger
what punishment would you advocate for this guy??

Life with no parole, but again the question should be why? what possesed a man to do this and does this call a question that maybe not enough is being done to understand and maybe learn to pick up the signs earlier.

14 Feb 2008

Quote by Garfield1
what punishment would you advocate for this guy??

Life with no parole, but again the question should be why? what possesed a man to do this and does this call a question that maybe not enough is being done to understand and maybe learn to pick up the signs earlier.
thats exactly what he got, a whole life `ll never hurt another child,and will do hard time in a population that knows his crimes.

14 Feb 2008

Quote by annejohn
what punishment would you advocate for this guy??

Life with no parole, but again the question should be why? what possesed a man to do this and does this call a question that maybe not enough is being done to understand and maybe learn to pick up the signs earlier.
thats exactly what he got, a whole life `ll never hurt another child,and will do hard time in a population that knows his crimes.
And hopefully, a population which will make sure he pays dearly for the crime.

14 Feb 2008

Quote by Bonedigger
what punishment would you advocate for this guy??

1. Put him in a room, with bed, heating, light etc.
2. Feed him 3 times a day, make him work an 8 hour day 5 days a week (don't forget to include tea/lunch breaks).
3. Give him a free education in a marketable skill. After 8 years release him for "good behaviour".
him with a council flat.
him with a job.
If he then brutally rapes, buggers, and kills another innocent child repeat steps 1 to 5 as above.
Or,
1. Put him in a 6'x6'x6' room with no windows, no bed, and no light.
2. Do not give him food, water or heat.
3. 6 months later, open the door.
If he then brutally rapes, buggers, and kills another innocent child it'll be a bloody miracle and justice will have been done - the money saved can go towards the medical upkeep of any of his victims that survive.

14 Feb 2008

Actually the idea of not having a death penalty has only been around from as little as 60 years or so. Most of the history of civilisation (say about 3000 years)as we comprehend it; has involved, massive amounts of gratuitous death.
So its not surprising we are having difficulty coming to terms with this 'new' idea.

14 Feb 2008

Quote by AshaandAlex
wtf?
Our post in here had a massive section deleted and it wasn't rude or anything, just a comment about a case in the USA, where the parents were inf avour of the death penalty for the people who murdered their son, but choose to give them life instead, so they would remember what they had done every day for the rest of their lives.

I wonder why your post was deleted? :shock:

14 Feb 2008

Quote by Seven_up
two wrongs have never made a right. By agreeing to death penalty you lowering yourself to there level. We have seen so many convictions recently overturned...so chance of killing wrong person is high.
so as far as I am concerned the death penalty has no place in a civilised society.

"and the meek shall inherit the earth". NOT!!
It is precisely because there is no effective deterrent to make wrongdoers think twice that they have no repect for societys laws and rules and commit crimes at all levels with out fear of any meaningful reprisal.
So called do gooders and defenders of ferral anti social types profess to hold liberal attitudes would change i feel if it were they who were on the receiving end of a ,Mugging or Intimidation or had someone close to them have it happen or worse to them.
We have all seen the 'green light,go for it, be our guest' message sent out time and time again to the criminals with sentences meted out to victims such as Farmer Tony Martin.
This breeds apathy in the general public and no confidence in the law to protect us. This has to makers and Politicians take note.
By God i feel better after that.
Rob
Good points. I wonder how many people on this thread read the Guardian, and cycle to work ? As Jon Gaunt would say " sod the long term useless and the ferral ".

14 Feb 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
two wrongs have never made a right. By agreeing to death penalty you lowering yourself to there level. We have seen so many convictions recently overturned...so chance of killing wrong person is high.
so as far as I am concerned the death penalty has no place in a civilised society.

"and the meek shall inherit the earth". NOT!!
It is precisely because there is no effective deterrent to make wrongdoers think twice that they have no repect for societys laws and rules and commit crimes at all levels with out fear of any meaningful reprisal.
So called do gooders and defenders of ferral anti social types profess to hold liberal attitudes would change i feel if it were they who were on the receiving end of a ,Mugging or Intimidation or had someone close to them have it happen or worse to them.
We have all seen the 'green light,go for it, be our guest' message sent out time and time again to the criminals with sentences meted out to victims such as Farmer Tony Martin.
This breeds apathy in the general public and no confidence in the law to protect us. This has to makers and Politicians take note.
By God i feel better after that.
Rob
Good points. I wonder how many people on this thread read the Guardian, and cycle to work ? As Jon Gaunt would say " sod the long term useless and the ferral ".

I for one dont cycle and i dont read the guardian, together with being a meat eater and being cynical (extreme at the least) about the causes of global warming. also believing in nuclear power, abolishing railways increasing road quantity quality and accessability getting rid of congestion charge making utilities free for the elderly, changing the schooling system increasing the quantity of our armed forces blowing up the channel tunnel. :rotflmao: i think on balance people would see me as a do-badder lol

15 Feb 2008

Quote by Bonedigger
what punishment would you advocate for this guy??

what i never understood about that story was if she wasnt seen as at risk why was she seen by so many health workers in such a short time? my kids never saw 30 health worker in less than 7 weeks!!!!! in fact i havn't seen that many health workers in 15 years between all 3 of them

15 Feb 2008

Quote by annejohn
what punishment would you advocate for this guy??

Life with no parole, but again the question should be why? what possesed a man to do this and does this call a question that maybe not enough is being done to understand and maybe learn to pick up the signs earlier.
thats exactly what he got, a whole life `ll never hurt another child,and will do hard time in a population that knows his crimes.
life don't mean life now days does it, he could be out in 15 years

15 Feb 2008

Quote by naughtynymphos1
what i never understood about that story was if she wasnt seen as at risk why was she seen by so many health workers in such a short time? my kids never saw 30 health worker in less than 7 weeks!!!!! in fact i havn't seen that many health workers in 15 years between all 3 of them

Poorly trained career-obsessed health workers.
Apart from the 30 visits + there will also have been a large amount of "meetings" where "they" discuss the various cases in the "portfolio". There will have been psychologists consulted, discussions about the mother etc etc etc etc.
The main problem being that the child displayed obvious signs of, at least, physical injury. That will have caused them problems. If the mother had been pregnant and mentally disabled, they would have applied for a care order and removed the child at birth. Then had the child adopted (for which they would have received from the gov).
These are not highly intelligent people we are talking about, they follow a carefully organised routine and traipse along behind each other.....nobody puts their head above the trenches in "public service"
At the end of the day, the child is dead. The "father" is incarcerated.
The "mother" is .... who knows ?
The "care workers", which is an oxymoron, live to fight another day.
Nobody comes out of this (as in all the other cases over the years) unscathed.
But a child is dead. And after a few months, nobody will remember.
How sad is that ?
Oh, and life means life. Just not locked-up. The guy will remain on licence for the rest of his days. And on the cpr as well.

15 Feb 2008

Why in the whole army of care workers we have does no-one stand up and be counted if what JTS says is right? I understand that their career might be important but if its true what JTS has said I wouldnt want to be working alongside these 30 care workers that did nothing and be associated with them. I just can't understand the mentality of some people mad

Sorry if my grammar is not up to scratch but I'm angry and upset about this case so I don't care!

15 Feb 2008

IFbeing the operative word.

15 Feb 2008

Quote by splendid_
IF being the operative word.

:thumbup: I was very careful about that if wink

15 Feb 2008

another news story and the whole debate starts all over again.
Maybe instead of the death penalty we should start buiding super-max type prisons you see in the united states.
Locked up for 23 hours a day and when out for that hour being watched by heavily armed guards and only being let to walk around with no contact from other prisoners.
Being locked up like that must have an affect on the mental state of someone but lets face it who cares about a child murderer or .
Like most have posted here a life term does not mean legal teams will look at everything in detail and find something to bring to a court in reducing a sentence.
im glad we had this debate.

15 Feb 2008

Quote by tyracer
Being locked up like that must have an affect on the mental state of someone but lets face it who cares about a child murderer or .

I care.

15 Feb 2008

Quote by Seven_up
It is precisely because there is no effective deterrent to make wrongdoers think twice that they have no repect for societys laws and rules and commit crimes at all levels with out fear of any meaningful reprisal.
So called do gooders and defenders of ferral anti social types profess to hold liberal attitudes would change i feel if it were they who were on the receiving end of a ,Mugging or Intimidation or had someone close to them have it happen or worse to them.
We have all seen the 'green light,go for it, be our guest' message sent out time and time again to the criminals with sentences meted out to victims such as Farmer Tony Martin.
This breeds apathy in the general public and no confidence in the law to protect us. This has to makers and Politicians take note.
By God i feel better after that.
Rob

Rob...you are fully intitled to your views...but lets just put a few things to bed. THE DEATH PENALTY IS NOT A DETERRANT !! The people who commit these crimes are either mentally deranged or they plan it so well they don't think they will get caught..so the punishment is not a deterrant ! In the states when the death penalty was introduced they actualy saw an increase in murder rate !! I am more than wiling for you to call the death penalty REVENGE.....but please don't try and call in justice !!

15 Feb 2008

As said to me by an educational social worker:

We do what we can. If we get it wrong, we get the blame. If we get it right, we still get the blame. If you take a child away from the parents, you are bastards. If it stays and is abused you are still bastards

That was 5 years ago, and I doubt things have changed. At the end of that childs days 30 PLUS people, people charged with child welfare, GOT IT WRONG. BIG TIME.
So, you have a choice: 30 people knew of the problems and either did not realise the extent or ignored them.
The chain of command must have had separate links not attached to each other.
At the very least a tragic level of incompetence existed.
At the worst, a complete lack of ability or interest.

15 Feb 2008

Quote by splendid_
Being locked up like that must have an affect on the mental state of someone but lets face it who cares about a child murderer or .

I care.

Then sorry to say....shame on you!

15 Feb 2008

Quote by JTS
As said to me by an educational social worker:
We do what we can. If we get it wrong, we get the blame. If we get it right, we still get the blame. If you take a child away from the parents, you are bastards. If it stays and is abused you are still bastards

That was 5 years ago, and I doubt things have changed. At the end of that childs days 30 PLUS people, people charged with child welfare, GOT IT WRONG. BIG TIME.
So, you have a choice: 30 people knew of the problems and either did not realise the extent or ignored them.
The chain of command must have had separate links not attached to each other.
At the very least a tragic level of incompetence existed.
At the worst, a complete lack of ability or interest.
What makes it almost as bad is the fact that not one of those buggers will be held to account! They will just walk on till the next disaster.....heads should roll, for someone is responsible for this tradgedy surely?