I heard on the news that people want Tony Blair to apologise, on behalf of the UK, for the slave trade.
This has got me slightly confused. If we (the UK) say sorry to the Africans, does that mean that the Italians will say sorry to us for when the Romans took our people into slavery?
Or will the Africans (Morrocco area) say sorry to the UK for taking Britons into slavery in the 16-1700's?
Or the Germans, French, Chinese, Japanese.........well in fact every nation that I can think of had slavery at some point.
How about, instead of people trying to beat up the British culture.......perhaps they should celebrate it.......for example.....who was the first Western country to abolish slavery, and then went on to patrol the seas at our own expense to try and stamp it out? Yep.......it was us.
Unfortunately, it was a sad time for those that had to endure it in the past.......but that is where it is.....in the past. Nothing to do with how I live my life now or how I think. So I don't want my country saying sorry for something that happened hundreds of years ago on my behalf, as I do not feel at all guilty about what other people did when civilization was completely different to what it is today.
Dave_Notts
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The Slave Trade
Sex God
With you on this one Dave.
I have a lot of friends in Germany and a similar discussion took place about the holocaust which went something like this.
Most young Germans abhor violence, dislike war and are absolutely horrified by what their country did during the war, however they are somewhat mystified as to why, year after year, they are expected to apologise and feel guilty for the sins of their forefathers.
That’s not to say that they advocate sweeping it under the carpet, quite the opposite, they are adamant that the world should be reminded of the horrors and the capacity of mans inhumanity to man if for no other reason than trying to ensure that it never happens again, however, making generations apologise for something that happened before they were even born goes a little beyond the pail.
That said, I have no problem with any nations leaders being asked to apologise ‘on behalf of past generations’ crimes, but as I read it (and I may be wrong) in this instance, that is not the case,
I stand to be corrected.
I have a lot of friends in Germany and a similar discussion took place about the holocaust which went something like this.
Most young Germans abhor violence, dislike war and are absolutely horrified by what their country did during the war, however they are somewhat mystified as to why, year after year, they are expected to apologise and feel guilty for the sins of their forefathers.
That’s not to say that they advocate sweeping it under the carpet, quite the opposite, they are adamant that the world should be reminded of the horrors and the capacity of mans inhumanity to man if for no other reason than trying to ensure that it never happens again, however, making generations apologise for something that happened before they were even born goes a little beyond the pail.
That said, I have no problem with any nations leaders being asked to apologise ‘on behalf of past generations’ crimes, but as I read it (and I may be wrong) in this instance, that is not the case,
I stand to be corrected.
I agree. You can't apologize fo something you didn't do. You may regret that it happened, but you can't apologize for it.
The BBC reported the Archbishop of York as saying that Britain should apologize, and that it was 'time to set the record straight'. Well, the record is what it is, and you can't alter it. That's trying to re-write history, and that wont do..
A celebration of the abolition is fine ... but the attempt to make people, especially children, feel guilty about it is very distasteful.
The BBC reported the Archbishop of York as saying that Britain should apologize, and that it was 'time to set the record straight'. Well, the record is what it is, and you can't alter it. That's trying to re-write history, and that wont do..
A celebration of the abolition is fine ... but the attempt to make people, especially children, feel guilty about it is very distasteful.
Sex God
totaly agree whith you on this one
The slave trade was disgraceful and should be remembered but i agree it is the past and where does apologising logically end? John Sentamu,Archbishop of York also said (when discussing the protester at the commemoration service yesterday) that he hoped 'the protesters depth of anger..is matched by that he should have towards those African chiefs who grew fat through the sale of their kith and kin for trinkets'.
Sex God
Quote by Ukwineman
I think Blair has got a lot more important things to apologise for than slavery.
yeah for being a lying, decieving, money grabbing ^&^$£&*&(*(%^()^
A politician you mean :giggle:
Master of Sex
they are talking of paying reparations, who to?? if money is available it should be used to fight slavery thst is going on now, especially child slavery in many countries that supply the west with cheap products
Quote by Kiss
they are talking of paying reparations, who to?? if money is available it should be used to fight slavery thst is going on now, especially child slavery in many countries that supply the west with cheap products
Ditto that! :thumbup:
seconded! lets use the cash to get rid of human traffiking too!
Quote by Dave__Notts
I heard on the news that people want Tony Blair to apologise, on behalf of the UK, for the slave trade.
This has got me slightly confused. If we (the UK) say sorry to the Africans, does that mean that the Italians will say sorry to us for when the Romans took our people into slavery?
Or will the Africans (Morrocco area) say sorry to the UK for taking Britons into slavery in the 16-1700's?
Or the Germans, French, Chinese, Japanese.........well in fact every nation that I can think of had slavery at some point.
How about, instead of people trying to beat up the British culture.......perhaps they should celebrate it.......for example.....who was the first Western country to abolish slavery, and then went on to patrol the seas at our own expense to try and stamp it out? Yep.......it was us.
Unfortunately, it was a sad time for those that had to endure it in the past.......but that is where it is.....in the past. Nothing to do with how I live my life now or how I think. So I don't want my country saying sorry for something that happened hundreds of years ago on my behalf, as I do not feel at all guilty about what other people did when civilization was completely different to what it is today.
Dave_Notts
Interesting to see that such a subject finds it way in to the forums of SH. Thanks to Dave-Notts. Since we are not trying here to restate the facts as they are well documented. However slavery as is historically recalled was carried out principally by western countries; Africans being the slaves (4 over 500yrs). Just like in recalling the holocast it was the Germany(under Hitler)that carried this out. This the German goverment have apologised for and has gone on to attempt to compensate. The British empire was responsible for the lions share of Slavery/Slave trade (in light of the fact that the British Empire controlled 70% of the world);hence the call for an apology. Unless people are saying it was wrong for the Germans to have apologised for the holocast :idea: . Put simple if someone was to enter your home, took you and others away and enslave you for 5days(let alone 500yrs), your daughters/mother, in the process of taking you away members of your family died/killed. How much time would be enough in your quest for justice. A year 5 yrs, 10 yrs ......50 etc. I hasten to add that i am a person of African extraction .
Ummm I would like to say that this is a tricky one.. but, for me it isn't.
A wrong is wrong.. no matter how long ago that wrong. The elected democratic government represents the country (I aint getting political about that statement) To my mind the country is still in existance and needs to apologise for what the country has done wrong. There is no 'time served,' as slavery still affects people today.. the grandchildren etc all live with the knowledge of their location/surname/memories being dictacted by enslavement etc etc... oh I could go on and on.. but I won't.
Suffice it to say that regardless of what other countries do... or what other countries say. Our country/government has a duty to apologise and recompense however we can.(in my opinion)
splendid
A wrong is wrong.. no matter how long ago that wrong. The elected democratic government represents the country (I aint getting political about that statement) To my mind the country is still in existance and needs to apologise for what the country has done wrong. There is no 'time served,' as slavery still affects people today.. the grandchildren etc all live with the knowledge of their location/surname/memories being dictacted by enslavement etc etc... oh I could go on and on.. but I won't.
Suffice it to say that regardless of what other countries do... or what other countries say. Our country/government has a duty to apologise and recompense however we can.(in my opinion)
splendid
Quote by diezel
I heard on the news that people want Tony Blair to apologise, on behalf of the UK, for the slave trade.
This has got me slightly confused. If we (the UK) say sorry to the Africans, does that mean that the Italians will say sorry to us for when the Romans took our people into slavery?
Or will the Africans (Morrocco area) say sorry to the UK for taking Britons into slavery in the 16-1700's?
Or the Germans, French, Chinese, Japanese.........well in fact every nation that I can think of had slavery at some point.
How about, instead of people trying to beat up the British culture.......perhaps they should celebrate it.......for example.....who was the first Western country to abolish slavery, and then went on to patrol the seas at our own expense to try and stamp it out? Yep.......it was us.
Unfortunately, it was a sad time for those that had to endure it in the past.......but that is where it is.....in the past. Nothing to do with how I live my life now or how I think. So I don't want my country saying sorry for something that happened hundreds of years ago on my behalf, as I do not feel at all guilty about what other people did when civilization was completely different to what it is today.
Dave_Notts
Interesting to see that such a subject finds it way in to the forums of SH. Thanks to Dave-Notts. Since we are not trying here to restate the facts as they are well documented. However slavery as is historically recalled was carried out principally by western countries; Africans being the slaves (4 over 500yrs). Just like in recalling the holocast it was the Germany(under Hitler)that carried this out. This the German goverment have apologised for and has gone on to attempt to compensate. The British empire was responsible for the lions share of Slavery/Slave trade (in light of the fact that the British Empire controlled 70% of the world);hence the call for an apology. Unless people are saying it was wrong for the Germans to have apologised for the holocast :idea: . Put simple if someone was to enter your home, took you and others away and enslave you for 5days(let alone 500yrs), your daughters/mother, in the process of taking you away members of your family died/killed. How much time would be enough in your quest for justice. A year 5 yrs, 10 yrs ......50 etc. I hasten to add that i am a person of African extraction .
i can only assume the Germans said sorry as this was something that happened in the same century,people who survived the holocast were still alive,people that were responsible for the holocast were still alive....the slave trade ended 200 years ago...without sounding harsh...everyone directly involved in the slave trade and the people enslaved are all long dead!....wether you are a direct decendent of someone enslaved...how has it really effected you?....like it has been said...the Romans enslaved a large portion of Europe..including Briton,why is that less important just because it was 1900 years ago?....why because its ancient history...just like the African Slave Industry will become one day...right now there are far more important issues that need to be dealt with and any form of compensation should go towards targeting the human trafficking that is happening now!...Again i ask why should we apologise for something that was not our doing...we have bent over backwards to make amends for what our ancestors did....and it is still getting thrown back in our faces!
Sex God
If were apoligising for things maybe the americans should apoligise for the war of independance!
Quote by splendid_Many thanks Splendid. I commend her thoughts for others to consider. The question again is; should there be a time limit on the pursuit of justice.
Ummm I would like to say that this is a tricky one.. but, for me it isn't.
A wrong is wrong.. no matter how long ago that wrong. The elected democratic government represents the country (I aint getting political about that statement) To my mind the country is still in existance and needs to apologise for what the country has done wrong. There is no 'time served,' as slavery still affects people today.. the grandchildren etc all live with the knowledge of their location/surname/memories being dictacted by enslavement etc etc... oh I could go on and on.. but I won't.
Suffice it to say that regardless of what other countries do... or what other countries say. Our country/government has a duty to apologise and recompense however we can.(in my opinion)
splendid
Quote by diezelMany thanks Splendid. I commend her thoughts for others to consider. The question again is; should there be a time limit on the pursuit of justice.
Ummm I would like to say that this is a tricky one.. but, for me it isn't.
A wrong is wrong.. no matter how long ago that wrong. The elected democratic government represents the country (I aint getting political about that statement) To my mind the country is still in existance and needs to apologise for what the country has done wrong. There is no 'time served,' as slavery still affects people today.. the grandchildren etc all live with the knowledge of their location/surname/memories being dictacted by enslavement etc etc... oh I could go on and on.. but I won't.
Suffice it to say that regardless of what other countries do... or what other countries say. Our country/government has a duty to apologise and recompense however we can.(in my opinion)
splendid
yes...when everyone involved is long dead.
Quote by Mr-PowersMany thanks Splendid. I commend her thoughts for others to consider. The question again is; should there be a time limit on the pursuit of justice.
Ummm I would like to say that this is a tricky one.. but, for me it isn't.
A wrong is wrong.. no matter how long ago that wrong. The elected democratic government represents the country (I aint getting political about that statement) To my mind the country is still in existance and needs to apologise for what the country has done wrong. There is no 'time served,' as slavery still affects people today.. the grandchildren etc all live with the knowledge of their location/surname/memories being dictacted by enslavement etc etc... oh I could go on and on.. but I won't.
Suffice it to say that regardless of what other countries do... or what other countries say. Our country/government has a duty to apologise and recompense however we can.(in my opinion)
splendid
yes...when everyone involved is long dead.
damn... I am going out for the evening....
but what I do want to say is that we aren't talking personalities.. we are talking about a country. The country is alive and well (?) so the country owes a debt and should start that reparation with a 'sorry'.
It isn't me, that is saying sorry it is my country, represented by the government.
and in answer to what you have said in another thread Mr Powers. With respect..if I had benefitted (or not)from the deception of my grandfather and I was informed of this then the very least I could do is say sorry. I wouldn't hesitate to do it. I would do all I could to apologise. I carry his genes and unfortunately (actually) have been in this situation and although I hadn't benefitted from what he did. I did apologise. 'nuff said.
splendid
Quote by splendid_Many thanks Splendid. I commend her thoughts for others to consider. The question again is; should there be a time limit on the pursuit of justice.
Ummm I would like to say that this is a tricky one.. but, for me it isn't.
A wrong is wrong.. no matter how long ago that wrong. The elected democratic government represents the country (I aint getting political about that statement) To my mind the country is still in existance and needs to apologise for what the country has done wrong. There is no 'time served,' as slavery still affects people today.. the grandchildren etc all live with the knowledge of their location/surname/memories being dictacted by enslavement etc etc... oh I could go on and on.. but I won't.
Suffice it to say that regardless of what other countries do... or what other countries say. Our country/government has a duty to apologise and recompense however we can.(in my opinion)
splendid
yes...when everyone involved is long dead.
damn... I am going out for the evening....
but what I do want to say is that we aren't talking personalities.. we are talking about a country. The country is alive and well (?) so the country owes a debt and should start that reparation with a 'sorry'.
It isn't me, that is saying sorry it is my country, represented by the government.
and in answer to what you have said in another thread Mr Powers. With respect..if I had benefitted (or not)from the deception of my grandfather and I was informed of this then the very least I could do is say sorry. I wouldn't hesitate to do it. I would do all I could to apologise. I carry his genes and unfortunately (actually) have been in this situation and although I hadn't benefitted from what he did. I did apologise. 'nuff said.
splendid
well i'm afraid...i wouldn't say sorry...but thats me.
Quote by splendid_
Ummm I would like to say that this is a tricky one.. but, for me it isn't.
A wrong is wrong.. no matter how long ago that wrong. The elected democratic government represents the country (I aint getting political about that statement) To my mind the country is still in existance and needs to apologise for what the country has done wrong. There is no 'time served,' as slavery still affects people today.. the grandchildren etc all live with the knowledge of their location/surname/memories being dictacted by enslavement etc etc... oh I could go on and on.. but I won't.
Suffice it to say that regardless of what other countries do... or what other countries say. Our country/government has a duty to apologise and recompense however we can.(in my opinion)
splendid
I totally agree Splendid.
Let's face it - throughout history virtually every country has done something horrendous to another country. How about getting the leaders of all the countries in all the world together and they can apologise to everyone for everything, ever. As for financial reparations, Great Britain is one of the leading charity-giving countries and has given billions of pounds in aid to Africa, Asia, Guernsey etc. How much more guilt money will be squeezed out of our pockets by Tony and his Pirates??!
I personally would like the French to apologise to us Anglo-Saxons for 1066, and for introducing garlic to the world. :silly:
I personally would like the French to apologise to us Anglo-Saxons for 1066, and for introducing garlic to the world. :silly:
Quote by diezel
I heard on the news that people want Tony Blair to apologise, on behalf of the UK, for the slave trade.
This has got me slightly confused. If we (the UK) say sorry to the Africans, does that mean that the Italians will say sorry to us for when the Romans took our people into slavery?
Or will the Africans (Morrocco area) say sorry to the UK for taking Britons into slavery in the 16-1700's?
Or the Germans, French, Chinese, Japanese.........well in fact every nation that I can think of had slavery at some point.
How about, instead of people trying to beat up the British culture.......perhaps they should celebrate it.......for example.....who was the first Western country to abolish slavery, and then went on to patrol the seas at our own expense to try and stamp it out? Yep.......it was us.
Unfortunately, it was a sad time for those that had to endure it in the past.......but that is where it is.....in the past. Nothing to do with how I live my life now or how I think. So I don't want my country saying sorry for something that happened hundreds of years ago on my behalf, as I do not feel at all guilty about what other people did when civilization was completely different to what it is today.
Dave_Notts
Interesting to see that such a subject finds it way in to the forums of SH. Thanks to Dave-Notts. Since we are not trying here to restate the facts as they are well documented. However slavery as is historically recalled was carried out principally by western countries; Africans being the slaves (4 over 500yrs). Just like in recalling the holocast it was the Germany(under Hitler)that carried this out. This the German goverment have apologised for and has gone on to attempt to compensate. The British empire was responsible for the lions share of Slavery/Slave trade (in light of the fact that the British Empire controlled 70% of the world);hence the call for an apology. Unless people are saying it was wrong for the Germans to have apologised for the holocast :idea: . Put simple if someone was to enter your home, took you and others away and enslave you for 5days(let alone 500yrs), your daughters/mother, in the process of taking you away members of your family died/killed. How much time would be enough in your quest for justice. A year 5 yrs, 10 yrs ......50 etc. I hasten to add that i am a person of African extraction .
Some Archbishop said that the African tribal leaders should also look at themselves. Where did all these slaves come from in the first place?
"The merchants obtained the slaves from African chiefs by giving them goods from Europe. At first, these slaves were often the captured soldiers from tribal wars. However, the demand for slaves become so great that raiding parties were organised to obtain young Africans."
Above is a piece about the slave trade. So if the Africans already had these people as slaves, then when they ran out......they went out and got some more to sell to the British.......perhaps Africa (since the tribal leaders were the equivalent of an elected British government) should be saying sorry to their own people for selling them off to foreigners.
But in my mind Africa has nothing to say sorry for. It is just a sorry part of theirs, and ours, history.
Who should we compensate anyway? Everybody is dead!
As for when does justice finish? Death is the final evader of justice.
Dave_Notts
