What a great parent.......not

24 Oct 2008

My folks live in France and have done for a long time. The village they live in has very little crime but then 25 people all over the age of 50 helps. Take a trip to Marseilles or Nice and stay a few weeks/months it would be an eye opener. Look up the crime stats there ain't much difference between France and the UK.
Twice as much land for the same amount of people = more distance between crime thats all.
And for what its worth the British are far more considerate as a nation,
On topic - This woman delivers to her family society and everyone else....

A big pile of shite

24 Oct 2008

Quote by Lost
My folks live in France and have done for a long time. The village they live in has very little crime but then 25 people all over the age of 50 helps. Take a trip to Marseilles or Nice and stay a few weeks/months it would be an eye opener. Look up the crime stats there ain't much difference between France and the UK.
Twice as much land for the same amount of people = more distance between crime thats all.
And for what its worth the British are far more considerate as a nation,
On topic - This woman delivers to her family society and everyone else....

A big pile of shite

You have to put that in it's true context though Lost. France has the same population as England but 3 times the land mass. I completely accept that crime in the suburbs of France is no less bad, in fact in some cases, far worse than it is in UK particularly in Paris where there is a high immigrant presence. However, for those fortunate to live in rural France, it is very unlikely that you will even see a Gendarme once in a month in your community whereas the CRS are very visible elsewhere which is always an indicator of the likelihood of trouble.
Young people in this part of France are a joy; they greet each other their elders and their juniors with much respect. It's that kind of respect that washes off on to the younger generation and carries on into the next.
Bit like England was in the 1960's

24 Oct 2008

Kent you need to stop bleating on about 20 years ago and get with the times.
I'm totally 100% with Anais as I'm in the same line of work. We are NOT committing an illegal offence by distributing condoms to under 16 year olds. I by the way, am a professionally trained C Card distributor and I'm not breaking the law as long as I follow the Fraser Guidelines (already mentioned that to you Kent rolleyes

).
On that point Kent on my previous comments I offered you things to look up and check out, this confirms hundreds of workers alike are not breaking the law. As part of a MASSIVE organisation I can assure you our service is frontline AND accessed by hundreds of young people as well as adults.
Might I add, that the youngsters are moving towards being more sexually safe with regard to STI's than some adults!
No one has said in any thread that they agree with kids having sex under the age of 16 and both Kent and GnV keep bantering on about it.
You cannot change the way the world is moving ffs and it's about time you saw the bigger picture.
I'll ask you both a question, if you were both carers of a group of young people and you were aware they were all having sex, what would you do? (and no, you cannot lock them up).

24 Oct 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
Anais you are now saying things which you did NOT say to start with in your original post. All you said was you gave a 12 year old a condom, now and only now are you giving the reasons.
Surely this person was a classic case of being put with a foster family and away from her family, that obviously could not cope? I am amazed that this kind of thing is going on with a child so young. I really cannot wait to get away from this country in a few years time, and to escape what this country has now become.
I am not digging at you Anais, but what you just described in your reply to me, has just left me speechless. This would never have happened twenty years ago, so something seriously has gone wrong with our society, and the sooner I am away from it...the better. My opinion.

Kent, I have highlighted some stuff in your response to anais because I would like to respond.
Yes, anais has gone into more details now than she originally did. It was obvious, was it not, that there was more to this case than initially met the eye? Nothing, as I have said before, is so clear cut that it should be taken at face value. This I think is one of the problems in the forum of late and just in general; people read a news headline or a post and are way too quick to judge without thinking about what is behind the headline/statistic/opinion.
I think it is interesting that you are so shocked and surprised at this story. This kind of case is going on everywhere. It is not one particular area or social class or family type either. Sit in at any case conference or child protection meeting at you will hear things that would make you weep. Far too many young people are sexually active at a far too early age: fact. The reasons that they become so are many and varied. They need help, support and action, not moral outrage and indignation.
Wouldn't it have happened 20 years ago? I beg to differ. There have been cases like this throughout history. Maybe we wouldn't have known about it then because there weren't as many agencies working to protect kids then as there are now. There also wasn't the access to the internet and mass communication devices like there are now. Technology has both helped and hindered in this area, I feel.
Foster care is not a panacea to cure all ills. I admire foster carers hugely. However not all placements work for all children.
Good luck in your quest to find somewhere to live that doesn't have its darker side Kent - I'm not being flippant, but it sounds to me like you are looking for some sort of rose-tinted Stepford ideal that I am not entirely sure is realistic.
My point being, as always, that these kind of issues are not clear cut. Don't believe the headlines; look deeper and see the real story before you judge/form opinions.

24 Oct 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
With , underage drinking and underage smoking...what is the point in having laws put in place if children are allowed to break them?
You have to be 18 to buy drink and and fags and a lot of shops will not sell it to you until you are 21. So when a parent buys a child drink or fags, they are breaking the law but, and here's the but, the police do nothing. So what's the point in having the law there?
With , giving a condom to a 12 year old in my view is about as iresponsible as it gets. Are there no boundaries that people will not go over? Where does a person draw the line? Would someone give a 6 year old a condom? I would have said def not. What about 10 then, is that ok?
The trouble here is that some think they are doing the right thing, but in the long run, it is the worst thing. If the law on sex is 16 and people think that is too high, then change it. But until that happens, giving a child a mere baby almost, a condom at 12 is just not justifiable. Social services should have been called in to deal with it. They are the " experts ", not somebody who thinks they are " doing the right thing ".
Sorry but nobody will ever convince me that a 12 year old having sex is right,and condoning it by supplying the tools for the job, ten years ago would have landed you in prison, and that is where peoples values and morals have taken a nose dive, and it is why we find ourselves in this terrible situation.

I'll answer some of the above from my perspective.
It was part of my job and our service delivery to give out condoms - we were also part of the C-Card Scheme. Not all my staff were able to do this unless they had attended a number of training courses - although they did attend basic training on sexual health. We had the support of other professional and worked to a strict set of guidelines.
Our policy (not sure if its across the uk) was if anyone under 13 yrs asked for condoms - they had to agree to go see a specially trained nurse before they were given out. During that talk with the nurse a number of things would be drawn out from that child - are they having sex? Are they at risk? Do they understand what they are doing? Loads of stuff...
Under-age sex was not condoned at all by our project and other agencies we worked with - we delivered sessions on relationship building, sexual health, self esteem, far to many to name - but all about understand themselves a little better and hopefully enabling them to make the right life choices.
This particular young person I gave condoms too had many other issues in her life. Social Services were spoken to and aware of what work we did with her. We also worked with the young men she was having sex with - ensuring they too had condoms.
We knew this young girl was sexually active from the age of 10 yrs old - at 11 yrs she was doing *line ups* in the local field that progressed to extremely risky sex. We also knew that the young men she was having sex with - already had Sti's.
What do you think would have happened to this young person if someone hadn't have intervened?
Her mother was dead. He father in Jail...she'd been in care now living with elderly grandparents who obviously couldn't cope, she had been passed around the family circle like a parcel.
We gave her a safe environment to talk and disclose issues she wanted to, to have fun, to take part in other opportunities, we gained help for her from other outside agencies, we supported her at school and outside it, she attended our themed sessions/training. We built up a relationship so good with her - that her sexual activity became less frequent. She started to understand that she can say *NO* and why she was doing what she did.
We did the right thing in this instance!! :smile:
Anais you are now saying things which you did NOT say to start with in your original post. All you said was you gave a 12 year old a condom, now and only now are you giving the reasons.
Surely this person was a classic case of being put with a foster family and away from her family, that obviously could not cope? I am amazed that this kind of thing is going on with a child so young. I really cannot wait to get away from this country in a few years time, and to escape what this country has now become.
I am not digging at you Anais, but what you just described in your reply to me, has just left me speechless. This would never have happened twenty years ago, so something seriously has gone wrong with our society, and the sooner I am away from it...the better. My opinion.
Suppose I didn't mention it as I thought everybody had heard enough about my previous job and Im sure I answered another of your threads from last year where I said the same thing in more detail - felt I was repeating myself. Was in a hurry when I answered your post as well Opps confused

:? :smile: No harm done tho, is there?? wink

Things like this weren't a daily occurrence - not even weekly/monthly. It was just one particular case/young person that always stays with me.
No, taking her away from her grandparents wasn't the best thing for her at the time - really. It was obvious to us the grandparents weren't coping but they did get more support eventually because of some of these issues. It was a long in-depth case for us and I cant go into all details.
The thing I've found is that some families are quite proud and wont ask for help or they feel failures or they don't know there is help available for them. That's the sad part!
Personally, I think things like this have and did happen 20 yrs ago - it just wasn't publicised or we were at an age were we didn't care or were socially aware of these things happening.
If anything has gone wrong in society are we in our 40's now, to blame??? Did it start going wrong in the 70'/80's? the eighties was a boom time for many people - did that change our expections? Huge developments changed our communities for ever. I could go on an on!!
The thing is - whoever or whatever is to blame - how we can we change things for our children/grandchildren ?
(I mean WE as in all of us, politicians, professionals, family etc....)

24 Oct 2008

I really don't think Anais that you had to justify yourself in any event, nor do I or any other professional that help youngsters.
I'm not all bad Kent and GnV, I do understand you are both probably very old fashioned when it comes to age limits etc., and I'm not dismissing your ethics, but really you need to stop accusing professionals who are there to help people of breaking the law when they are not.
For the record I used to have similar views as yourselves, but you have to move on and you have to face reality and the reality is kids are having sex earlier and they need help and advice as Nola said, they don't need the moral high ground or that could well end up with higher teenage pregnancy and STI rates! I'm sure everyone has seen the Chlamydia adverts? 1 in 10 under 25 year olds carry the infection and a large % of that are under 16, so come on, do they need help and advice? yes of course they do.
wink

24 Oct 2008

Quote by jaymar
I really don't think Anais that you had to justify yourself in any event, nor do I or any other professional that help youngsters.

I didn't mind clarifying :smile: I'm away with the fairies most days confused

:? :? :lol2: :lol2:

24 Oct 2008

Quote by jaymar
I really don't think Anais that you had to justify yourself in any event, nor do I or any other professional that help youngsters.
I'm not all bad Kent and GnV, I do understand you are both probably very old fashioned when it comes to age limits etc. , and I'm not dismissing your ethics, but really you need to stop accusing professionals who are there to help people of breaking the law when they are not.
For the record I used to have similar views as yourselves, but you have to move on and you have to face reality and the reality is kids are having sex earlier and they need help and advice as Nola said, they don't need the moral high ground or that could well end up with higher teenage pregnancy and STI rates! I'm sure everyone has seen the Chlamydia adverts? 1 in 10 under 25 year olds carry the infection and a large % of that are under 16, so come on, do they need help and advice? yes of course they do.

I never said anything untoward about professionals doing their job that I can recall..
I wholeheartedly subscribe to the view that if the law needs to be changed, then change it!
However, whilst the law is as it currently is - good or bad - it is the law and it sends out the wrong message to people at such a tender age that they can frequently and without question disregard it if it doesn't suit them.
is also against the law. Some might not agree with that but what sort of message will be given out to the populous if the authorities started doing nothing about it? :shock:
And please don't argue that the two things are not the same. They carry exactly the same weight in the minds of right thinking people in society. These laws are designed in a civilised society to protect the vulnerable - whether they like being protected or not. A 12 year old should be protected from such an assault, not assisted in pursuing it.
Of course it happens that minors will indulge themselves in sex - society these days sees to it that they have enough encouragement from the media. But when it occurs, they should be dealt with in an understanding and committed way befitting a caring society based on the family unit, not just thrown a packet or two of condoms, morning after pill vouchers and a free supply of contraceptive pills and told to get on with it.
Finally, I'm NOT an old fogey! :wink:

24 Oct 2008

Quote by flower411
Finally, I'm NOT an old fogey!

Are to !!! rotflmao

but he is..
bolt

:2fingers: :2fingers: :2fingers:

24 Oct 2008

Quote by jaymar
Kent you need to stop bleating on about 20 years ago and get with the times.I'm totally 100% with Anais as I'm in the same line of work. We are NOT committing an illegal offence by distributing condoms to under 16 year olds. I by the way, am a professionally trained C Card distributor and I'm not breaking the law as long as I follow the Fraser Guidelines (already mentioned that to you Kent ).
On that point Kent on my previous comments I offered you things to look up and check out, this confirms hundreds of workers alike are not breaking the law. As part of a MASSIVE organisation I can assure you our service is frontline AND accessed by hundreds of young people as well as adults.
Might I add, that the youngsters are moving towards being more sexually safe with regard to STI's than some adults!
No one has said in any thread that they agree with kids having sex under the age of 16 and both Kent and GnV keep bantering on about it.
You cannot change the way the world is moving ffs and it's about time you saw the bigger picture.
I'll ask you both a question, if you were both carers of a group of young people and you were aware they were all having sex, what would you do? (and no, you cannot lock them up).

Sorry Mar, I am obviously not " hip hop" enough, not with the times, too old fashioned. So be it, I can live with that. I would rather be called an " old fogey " and have my beliefs and morals on this particular subject, than be in with the times, and as GNV has said " throw a packet of condoms " at the issue.
I never said you was breaking the law, what I said was 20 years ago, giving a 12 year old a condom you may well have ended up in prison. Then again there was not the help out there, like there is today.
Sorry but I had no idea what Anais did for a living and if she did say, my memory is like a sive.....see thats what being an old fogey does for ya. lol

So yes I think she did have to justify her original comment...which she has very kindly done.
Nobody seems to have answered one of my questions which was....would you give a condom to an 8 year old? If not why not? Whilst looking to the future is a good thing, don't knock some of the things that happened 20 years ago, some of the old practises worked well then, but with the hip hop times, have gone badly wrong since.
I can understand maybe why you would give a condom to a 12 year old, but that does not mean I have to justify it, or agree with it....or does it? For fear of being called an old fogey. cool

Your question that you asked I would ( of course if allowed ), would be to go to the parents of that child, and discuss it with them. Is it not the parents responsibilty to parent their child? But dont tell me the kids now have data protection as well? :lol:

24 Oct 2008

I've been trying to work out why 20 years ago.
1988, yer I remember them they were the glorious days of enlightenment. You could walk the streets after dark. Children were seen and not heard and happy to play football in the park with jumpers for goal posts. Safe inthe knowledge that the lefties hadn't invented paedos by then.
No race riots happened before then
Coal miners were all fully employed
Drugs didn't exist
Happy men walked into factories safe in the knowledge that their labours were justly rewarded and fueled a booming British economy.
Oh yes a golden era to look back on for sure

24 Oct 2008

Quote by keeno
I've been trying to work out why 20 years ago.
1988, yer I remember them they were the glorious days of enlightenment. You could walk the streets after dark. Children were seen and not heard and happy to play football in the park with jumpers for goal posts. Safe inthe knowledge that the lefties hadn't invented paedos by then.
No race riots happened before then
Coal miners were all fully employed
Drugs didn't exist
Happy men walked into factories safe in the knowledge that their labours were justly rewarded and fueled a booming British economy.
Oh yes a golden era to look back on for sure

Keeno it was an example that this Mother and the condom issue would not have happened 20 years ago, as people would have been shocked, much more than they are today. You know what I was saying and so does everybody else.
Your not a union man by any chance are you? lol

:lol:

24 Oct 2008

I can't even remember what was happening 20 years ago. I remember aids made condoms suddenly common place.
But as ever I don't listen or read the reactionary twaddle you do.
Union man no....self employed, own business, just liberal and free thinking. Not tied into right wing dogma wink

24 Oct 2008

Quote by keeno
I can't even remember what was happening 20 years ago. I remember aids made condoms suddenly common place.
But as ever I don't listen or read the reactionary twaddle you do.
Union man no....self employed, own business, just liberal and free thinking. Not tied into right wing dogma

I do watch the BBC1 news as well ya know. :wink: :wink:

24 Oct 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
I can understand maybe why you would give a condom to a 12 year old, but that does not mean I have to justify it, or agree with it....or does it? For fear of being called an old fogey.

My un-experienced answer to this would be, if a child knew what it was doing and having sex, they need condoms whatever their age.
If they are risking their health through choice then we should protect them from STI's. I'm not saying that every child needs condoms but the odd one or two do and thats why we have professionals to help these kids.
The argument on fags or beer just doesn't wash with me, they do not protect health, they harm it.
As for arguing about what went on 20 years ago, well I don't agree with that either. There was a couple of girls in my school that had kids. My great Aunty had a baby when she was 14 and that was 75 years ago. It is more public now but it did happen. Whats happened to sending unmarried or young girls away to the countryside to have babies without anyone knowing? Children being brought up by Grandparents but thinking they were their parents? Trying to adopt a baby is so flipping hard now because young Mums are not forced into parting with babies.
Sex is sex! Kids are curious and at some point they want to try it, simple as.

24 Oct 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
Giving a condom to a 12 year old because one feels that is better that they are being careful, is not answering the underlying problem. Would it be ok to give a child of 12 some vodka, as long as they were being careful with it and not getting drunk?
What happens the next time that same child cannot get a condom? He will do it without, and damn the results as at 12 he would not think about the long term effects. As he is a child and as such will think like a child.
The answers I do not have, I wish I did.

You're right it isn't answering the underlying problem, however it's an age old problem, and won't go away with any amount of evangelising!
Giving a condom to an under 16 year old is just one way to address the problem, it takes a whole arsenal of techniques and they are all needed. Sex education, parental responsibility, the promotion of abstinence, contraception etc all form part of that arsenal.
Kent, as the mother of two early teenage girls, both going through puberty and discovering their feminine charms, I'd much rather they understand and have access to condoms than be faced with teenage pregnancy and abortion being an option we have to discuss!
We do/will recommend abstinence and delaying becoming sexually active with all our children. But at the end of the day, if they are hellbent on having sex (substitute drinking or smoking) they will find the ways and means of doing it.
Between condoms and abortions, I genuinely feel that a condom is the lesser evil! And I really wish someone had given me that option!

24 Oct 2008

Ive had a think about the 8 yr old bit you asked Mr K ...
I wouldn't give a condom to an 8yr old to use for sex no... I would really be concerned if that age group were sexually active to need one. If I came across that I would want to find out if it actually IS TRUE - these little tykes can spin a yarn sometimes!! :lol2:
We also didn't work with that age group, we were 11 to 25 yrs old. The C-Card and condom scheme is for 13 to 19yrs old predominantly, very rare circumstances we worked outside that remit. If we did - we would certainly have got advice on it and explained why we are asking.
If I had come across it (we did meet brothers and sisters of the older ones) and felt there was some concern...I would have dealt with it under Child Protection Procedures - which was to to report to SS and it would probably be referred onto another agency who work more with that age group.
I don't think there is anything wrong with enquiring minds at that age - most want to feel, touch, play with, shove over head and dance round room....end of story for them - they move on pretty quick to something else. Rather than have it come across as something naughty and dirty I personally would rather see it worked with it (with parents permission and consent thats needed for all under 16 yrs old). We had the odd 8/9 yrs old ask sexual questions out of curiosity because of what older children had told them and we answered those questions to the best of our ability.
We did have one of the sexual health bus's visiting once - had a load of condoms stolen - bluddy kids everywhere running up an down the street, having water fights, condoms on their heads.... looked good fun!!! I didn't join in of course, far to professional for that!

24 Oct 2008

I agree with a lot of what 777 says although I do have a problem with this 20 years ago thing - thats not the case. If you were saying 40 years ago 777 or feasibly 30 maybe but certainly not 20 confused

I checked your profile age just to make sure you weren't 4 or something and talking from that viewpoint :lol2: Come on the AIDS awareness thing was going on the 'just say no' campaigns I can remember the debates re:- condoms in schools and for kids from when i was at school in the eighties.
I think that we all have our part to play in the profligacy of sex as a thing thats OK and that maybe, though we may not show it, our children and young folk can see that and act accordingly but without the depth of thought a few years added would give them.
Lets face it in the western world its is more a case of how we are going to live than if we are going to live. This is maybe what we need to address and come to terms with, introducing new values and states of mind rather than those of our fathers and fathers fathers.
For the record I don't feel it is right to give condoms to 12 year old nor do i feel it is right to give sex education to primary school children but I have no other ideas so leave it to those, that I hope, are more able to professionally guide society in the hopes it is the right way.
I still don't get the idea that there is less teenage pregnancy and STI issues within the British ethnic Hindu/Muslim communities where there is very little or no sexual education allowed by the adults to be taught by third parties. This sort of flies in the face of more education less problem or would this be because of a fundamental difference in lifestyle?
I wish i could be more Pauciloquent.

24 Oct 2008

Quote by Lost

I wish i could be more Pauciloquent.

isn't that a fancy name for a parrot? confused

24 Oct 2008

Quote by flower411
I`m a smug git who believes that wayward children are generally the fault of the parents and their lack of ability in the parenting department ....I`ll eat my words in public when I`m proved wrong !!

Wayward child wave

perfectly normal, strict parents!

24 Oct 2008

Quote by flower411
Sorry to pick a bit out of ya post Lost but for a bloke that once accused people of "wordy bollocks" on this forum ....you don`t half go on !!
I`d like to know if your statement is true. It "feels" true to me but are we just guilty of condoning the covers ups and secrecy that might abound ??

I have to admit to having a chuckle - Pauciloquent - Fantastic expect to hear more biggrin

I have never denied myself of being full of wordy bollox. Though am I age appropriate hmmm I don't know, though I am a Economically Unprepared, Melanin challenged, follically regressing, non-female with a life partner and independant-minded youths.
As for the Hindu/Muslim bit of that post, I do remember reading up something on the net regarding the subject but i'll be beggered if i can remember where. I think I may of quoted some sources in a previous post where i suggested the same thing but which post :dunno:
As for the 'cover ups' and 'secrecy' I have no doubt that may have a large bearing on the idea together with maybe fear? It would be lovely to find some good discussion on such but where? I haven't a clue.

24 Oct 2008

Quote by flower411

Sorry to pick a bit out of ya post Lost but for a bloke that once accused people of "wordy bollocks" on this forum ....you don`t half go on !!
I`d like to know if your statement is true. It "feels" true to me but are we just guilty of condoning the covers ups and secrecy that might abound ??

I have to admit to having a chuckle - Pauciloquent - Fantastic expect to hear more biggrin

I have never denied myself of being full of wordy bollox. Though am I age appropriate hmmm I don't know, though I am a Economically Unprepared, Melanin challenged, follically regressing, non-female with a life partner and independant-minded youths.
As for the Hindu/Muslim bit of that post, I do remember reading up something on the net regarding the subject but i'll be beggered if i can remember where. I think I may of quoted some sources in a previous post where i suggested the same thing but which post :dunno:
As for the 'cover ups' and 'secrecy' I have no doubt that may have a large bearing on the idea together with maybe fear? It would be lovely to find some good discussion on such but where? I haven't a clue.
What have ya got Lost ??
A dictionary of words "not often used in polite society" ??
Or have ya found yaself a thesaurus ?? lol

:lol:
Maybe chatting to Peanut? :dunno: :lol:
Losty does have a point though. In the Indian and Muslim faiths in the UK, it would be very very unlikely you would hear of this sort of behavour. So that being the case why would that be? Stricter religions maybe, or stricter moral values? I would probably say that was so.
Sorry but it is mostly the white indigenous parent, not always but....on the whole. No doubt some smart arse will correct me though. :lol:

24 Oct 2008

:giggle: I have never read so much bollocks!

24 Oct 2008

Quote by Calista
:giggle: I have never read so much bollocks!

You aint been on the forums long then? lol

:lol: :lol:

24 Oct 2008

Quote by flower411
:giggle: I have never read so much bollocks!

Blimey !!
So people being honest and trying to make sense of their thoughts ....is bollocks ...
I live and learn ...
What I've read so far is supposition! If Kenty can provide me with statistics then fine ... but whilst the instances may well be lower, you rarely see headlines of indigenous white teenagers being murdered for bringing shame on their family!
Teenage pregnancy happens in all cultures, some are better at sweeping it under the carpet. Those cultures who do manage to keep it reigned in generally have a repressive culture where women/girls are concerned.
Fear stops females from getting pregnant (or caught). I guess it depends on your point of view as to what evil is greater.

24 Oct 2008

Quote by Lost
I agree with a lot of what 777 says although I do have a problem with this 20 years ago thing - thats not the case. If you were saying 40 years ago 777 or feasibly 30 maybe but certainly not 20 I checked your profile age just to make sure you weren't 4 or something and talking from that viewpoint :lol2: Come on the AIDS awareness thing was going on the 'just say no' campaigns I can remember the debates re:- condoms in schools and for kids from when i was at school in the eighties.
I think that we all have our part to play in the profligacy of sex as a thing thats OK and that maybe, though we may not show it, our children and young folk can see that and act accordingly but without the depth of thought a few years added would give them.
Lets face it in the western world its is more a case of how we are going to live than if we are going to live. This is maybe what we need to address and come to terms with, introducing new values and states of mind rather than those of our fathers and fathers fathers.
For the record I don't feel it is right to give condoms to 12 year old nor do i feel it is right to give sex education to primary school children but I have no other ideas so leave it to those, that I hope, are more able to professionally guide society in the hopes it is the right way.
I still don't get the idea that there is less teenage pregnancy and STI issues within the British ethnic Hindu/Muslim communities where there is very little or no sexual education allowed by the adults to be taught by third parties. This sort of flies in the face of more education less problem or would this be because of a fundamental difference in lifestyle?
I wish i could be more Pauciloquent.

Losty 20 years ago for example was there a knife epidemic, or gun crime, or 20 plus kids being killed on the streets of Britain? Or a Father who goes out and tries to stop ferel thugs from kicking his wifes car, when they like a pack of dogs, kicked him to death. Are you saying that happened 20 years ago? I think so someone show me the evidence of this kind of crime, happening as often as it does now please.
Tha Aids thing...in my opinion....was blown way way way out of proportion. That was mainly gay guys and drug users sharing needles. At that time there was hardly anyone from the hetrosexual side being affected. Just like a lot of things, it was mainly scaremongering....my opinion.
In the 80's the Aids thing was plastered all over the tv and papers...when was the last time anyone heard anything mentioned about Aids? I buy a paper everyday and there is never a mention of it. So has it suddenly stopped, and if so why? dunno

Are there really more people practising safe sex, than in the 80's? I dont know.....does anyone?
20 years ago check the divorce rates compared to today, check the teenage pregnancy rates from say early 80's to todays figures, it would not even come close. Check how many single families there are now compared to that time. It is all relevant to todays problems I feel So even only 20 years ago Losty a lot of things have changed. Go back another 10 years to the early 70's and you would not recognise Britain then to todays times.

24 Oct 2008

Quote by flower411
:giggle: I have never read so much bollocks!

Blimey !!
So people being honest and trying to make sense of their thoughts ....is bollocks ...
I live and learn ...
What I've read so far is supposition! If Kenty can provide me with statistics then fine ... but whilst the instances may well be lower, you rarely see headlines of indigenous white teenagers being murdered for bringing shame on their family!
Teenage pregnancy happens in all cultures, some are better at sweeping it under the carpet. Those cultures who do manage to keep it reigned in generally have a repressive culture where women/girls are concerned.
Fear stops females from getting pregnant (or caught). I guess it depends on your point of view as to what evil is greater.
So .. ya go from giggling emoticons ...to alluding to people who are not idigenous and white being murderers !!!
Wow ....
Don't misquote me ... you are treading on extremely dodgy ground there!
The quote pertained to a specific instance and not a generalisation!

24 Oct 2008

Religious cultures have a history of repressing the females of their society. Education is not of paramount importance and fear is the stick that is used to keep women in line. This is what lessens the instances of general teenage pregnancy.
However it isn't unheard of, in middle eastern cultures to find 14 year olds being "married off" in an attempt to unite two families. The welfare of the child involved is of little importance, the impact on the physical and mental health of that child is of little importance.
We, as westerners, still find this practice abhorrent and see the freedom we afford to women in this country as important as that of the males.
If this is the case do we value the rights of women/girls as more important or the restrict societal values again to the point women are repressed?
Surely it is more important, to work on educating children from an early age about self worth, building on this until sex education is appropriate and then once information is available, making sure that it is well rounded, balanced information. This involves going into health issues, not just STIs such as chlamydia, herpes and HIV, but cervical cancer, pregnancy, abortion etc. All at age appropriate times.

24 Oct 2008

Quote by flower411
:giggle: I have never read so much bollocks!

Blimey !!
So people being honest and trying to make sense of their thoughts ....is bollocks ...
I live and learn ...
What I've read so far is supposition! If Kenty can provide me with statistics then fine ... but whilst the instances may well be lower, you rarely see headlines of indigenous white teenagers being murdered for bringing shame on their family!
Teenage pregnancy happens in all cultures, some are better at sweeping it under the carpet. Those cultures who do manage to keep it reigned in generally have a repressive culture where women/girls are concerned.
Fear stops females from getting pregnant (or caught). I guess it depends on your point of view as to what evil is greater.
So .. ya go from giggling emoticons ...to alluding to people who are not idigenous and white being murderers !!!
Wow ....
Don't misquote me ... you are treading on extremely dodgy ground there!
The quote pertained to a specific instance and not a generalisation!
Giggling
Alluding to non white idigenous people being murderers
And now accusing me of misquoting !!!!
I haven`t changed a single thing you have said ....In what way am I treading on "extremely dodgy ground" ??
You`ve lost me completely now .
Point out to me where I was giggling in reference to my comment about "headlines of indigenous white teenagers being murdered for bringing shame on their family! " I was in effect giggling at the suppositions being made by people on this thread and did plainly quantify that in another post.
Would you like me to provide headlines to instances of "honour crimes" (look at the the section that says "see also").
You are misquoting me as saying that I am "alluding to non white indigenous people being murderers", whereas I am making a point that teenage pregnancy in non-western cultures is actually a bigger problem than it is in western cultures.
In effect you accuse me of racism, which if you actually knew me would understand is absolutely ludicrous!

24 Oct 2008

Quote by flower411
Well ... if anything I said had anything to do with you posting all that .....I can sleep soundly tonight ...

So do I get an apology for you implying that I am racist or "giggling" over something I never said?