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Bluefish2009
Over 90 days ago
Straight Male, 60
Straight Female, 50
UK

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Quote by deancannock
okay...you believe a market research company....I'll believe the Governments own figures !! As iF the government itself is going to massage the figures so they look worse than they actually are !!

I do not think they are disagreeing with the government figures, just saying that things are possibly not as bad as one might think from the reports we read in papers etc. We made some good progress in the first part of the year as I linked to.
I do not believe it all to be doom and gloom as you would have us believe.
I know of industry's who are currently struggling to keep up with there work load.
The UK has sunk back into a recession, if the official
first estimate of economic growth in the first quarter is
to be believed. However, the underlying strength of the
economy is probably much more robust than these
data suggest. The danger is that these gloomy data
deliver a fatal blow to the fragile revival of consumer
and business confidence seen so far this year,
harming the recovery and even sending the country
back into a ‘real’ recession

Quote by Bowlerskip
Would love to hear if there is any action as not far from Blandford.
What about Badbury Rings area, does anything happen there?

There are some in the Blandford area, just wondered if they are active still?
Click below and scroll down
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/dogging/locations/dorset-dogging.html
Quote by deancannock
Were all doomed wink
Chris Williamson, Markit:
The underlying strength of the economy is probably much more robust than these data suggest. The danger is that these gloomy data deliver a fatal blow to the fragile revival of consumer and business confidence seen so far this year, harming the recovery and even sending the country back into a real recession.
Not for the first time, the official data and survey data are sending conflicting signals...The disappointing GDP data also contrast with other official data, which indicate that retail sales grew 0.8 percent in the first three months of the year and the labour market to have shown some signs of improvement.

The worry for me is the doom and gloom brigade will in the end win :sad:

come on blue take blinkers off....the economy is about manufacturing. Retail grew selling foreign goods !!! No use to the actual economy in reality. Manufacturing is on its knees. The awful unemployment figures for last 12 monthes show what the economy is all about. We need investment for growth. This is not about doom and gloom....this is about reality!!!
Are you sure?
Were all doomed wink
Chris Williamson, Markit:
The underlying strength of the economy is probably much more robust than these data suggest. The danger is that these gloomy data deliver a fatal blow to the fragile revival of consumer and business confidence seen so far this year, harming the recovery and even sending the country back into a real recession.
Not for the first time, the official data and survey data are sending conflicting signals...The disappointing GDP data also contrast with other official data, which indicate that retail sales grew 0.8 percent in the first three months of the year and the labour market to have shown some signs of improvement.

The worry for me is the doom and gloom brigade will in the end win :sad:
Quote by Too Hot
James Lovelock - One of the founders of the Climate Change myth is writing a new book saying that he was wrong 20 years ago in his original synopsis and admits that the earth is not warming as he and many others expected despite increases in CO2.
He now says...
“The problem is we don’t know what the climate is doing. We thought we knew 20 years ago. That led to some alarmist books – mine included – because it looked clear-cut, but it hasn’t happened,” Lovelock said.
“The climate is doing its usual tricks. There’s nothing much really happening yet. We were supposed to be halfway toward a frying world now,” he said.
“The world has not warmed up very much since the millennium. Twelve years is a reasonable time… it (the temperature) has stayed almost constant, whereas it should have been rising -- carbon dioxide is rising, no question about that,”
Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of this rather sick joke that has had governments taxing us to change the weather and putting the first world countries ion an almighty guilt trip.

:thumbup:
Quote by Staggerlee_BB

If a past time is legal then I and others may take part in it, no matter what other views may be on it.

well said blue it really is as simple as that :thumbup:
Wasn't stalking mentioned earlier ??
Quote by Staggerlee_BB

If a past time is legal then I and others may take part in it, no matter what other views may be on it.

well said blue it really is as simple as that :thumbup:
Wasn't stalking mentioned earlier ??
Quote by HimandHer
The shoots that you know about, do not make a good basis for a substantive argument - it is not unlike saying that the Hunting Act 2004 was effective because it stopped the hunts that I know about.
What about the shoots that you don't know about - I have been on many shoots, both as a beater and a shooter, I organise them, I shoot on them and I can guarantee you that this does not happen. Maybe it should... maybe I should do more... maybe I am the only one in the country where this does not happen - I will accept that, but I doubt it is true.
Well I can assure you this is rare, shoots require all the money they can get, so sell all meat to the game dealer. If you organise shoots that do not collect there shot game then you should be ashamed!

Man also existed without shotguns and gun dogs, your argument supports the case that cars and meat eaters, and gun dogs should all be outlawed - or neither should be. It does not support the argument that cars and meat eaters are not necessary but gun dogs are.
Yes I know, I said, apply your unusual logic, that because it is not required we should not have it to all or nothing
I accept that your opinion remains steadfast - but I don't accept that it remains steadfast because of the excitable and legal nature of it.
Some people find stalking excitable - it is also still legal (at the moment) - so I should be allowed to do it. I appreciate the example is ridiculous, but there will be other examples that you may find objectionable - but which in all fairness would meet the criterion that you have set out.
I think I may have made a spelling mistake, excitable should have been acceptable
I don't believe that that finding something excitable and legal is sufficient justification for perpetuating the practice. Once upon a time witch burning met that criteria.

If a past time is legal then I and others may take part in it, no matter what other views may be on it.
Quote by HimandHer
If it is not to cull birds, then why is it the case that not every single bird that is retrieved by a gun dog, makes it to the dinner table.
In fact I would suggest that out of all the birds that are shot, whether a gun dog is present or not, that most of them do not make it to the dinner table.
On every shoot I know all birds that are shot and picked up are eaten, some by the guns, some by the beaters and the rest are sold to the game dealer who then sells to the butcher.
To that end, either birds should not be shot unless they are for the dinner table, or birds can be shot if the reason that underwrites the shooting is culling.
Infact, is it not the case that DEFRA General Licences exist for the culling of birds pursuant to the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 - irrespective of whether a gun dog is involved or not?
I do not believe that the argument is a weak argument, and I agree - please do apply it to meat eating and cars - put the question out there yourself... are cars necessary? Is it necessary to eat meat? I would argue yes on both counts and many would agree (I suspect most would), but some wouldn't and that's fair enough. The fact that most people would agree (in my opinion) would be good enough.
No cars and meat are not required, we just enjoy both and you make your case as that is what suits you. Man existed without cars ans vegitarians exist without meat. The majority/ minority argument is a red herring, just because a majority prefer to believe some thing does not automatically make it correct or right.
Do most people agree that birds are shot are to put them on the dinner table? I would suggest that the most common bird that makes it to the dinner table is the chicken - I would further suggest that they are not shot, neither are they retrieved by gun dogs.
dunno
Like I say I am not anti blood sports, and I suspect that a Tesco Value Chicken would prefer to take its chances with a shotgun rather than have the life that it is destined for... but that is a different argument altogether.
My opinion remains that a gun dogs' tail is not required to be docked, because there is no requirement for a gun dog. I accept that the pastime is legitimate, I do not accept that Grouse, Pheasant, Partridge, Duck etc cannot be bred for the dinner table in the same way that the Chicken is.

I would rather not see any of the above moved to intensive rearing like chickens. I like to see them the way they are.
As it is an excitable and legal past time gun dogs are required. My opinion remains steadfast
Of coarse many here will believe this unnecessary, but I feel a good step forward for rural issues
People living in the countryside are losing out because the Government spends twice as much on those in urban areas, James Gray warned yesterday.
The North Wiltshire MP used a special Commons debate to highlight the problem – and urged Ministers to change it.
He spoke out in a Commons debate on Government support for rural economies, secured by former Countryside Alliance chief executive Simon Hart, who is now a Tory MP.
Mr Hart, who grew up in the Cotswolds and attended the Royal Agricultural College in Cirencester, said a fifth of the population either live or work in the countryside.
But he said while rural isolation was a dream for some people, it was a nightmare for others.
The challenges included deprivation, poverty, the more limited educational opportunities and the cost of fuel, which could be 5p a litre more expensive than in cities.
There were also issues over rural transport and affordable housing, the availability of healthcare, access to financial services and a higher fear of crime, especially among older people.
Mr Hart suggested the Government had done well on internet broadband access, food labelling, red tape in farming and planning.
“However the rural jury is still out on affordable housing, post offices, mobile phone coverage, fear of crime and more recently on VAT on caravans, fuel poverty and transport costs as well,” he said.
Tory MP Mr Gray said the Government must revamp the system “to correct the anomaly whereby the Government spends about £200 per head in rural areas and about £400 per head in urban areas”.
“Surely that is wrong and the forthcoming review of local government finance and, incidentally, of health finance as well should correct that anomaly,” he added.
He also attacked the small print in last month’s Budget on VAT on the restoration of historic churches and houses.
“Because of that, it will be necessary to do away with the restoration of the church at Castle Combe in my constituency,” he said. Another Tory MP, Caroline Nokes, warned in rural areas across the country, six pubs are closing every week.
And Lib Dem Roger Williams urged Ministers not to push the traditional makers of cider out of business in trying to deal with alcohol abuse in society.
Rural Affairs Minister Richard Benyon promised to deliver services fairly and equally, to ensure people were not discriminated against for living in the countryside

Quote by HimandHer
I do not believe the process is one which is barbaric - I do believe it is not required, I appreciate the arguments about working dogs tails being docked - and I am willing to "blindly" accept the statistics without further research.
I can blindly accept them, because I do not believe that working dogs are required either - save for some specialised uses (Police Dogs, Army Dogs, Sheep Dogs, Rescue Dogs, Customs etc etc).
I suspect that these organisations do not have dogs whose tails require docking to prevent "injury", but if they do then I can accept that it should be done.
I deliberately ommitted "Gun Dogs" as although I am willing to accept that they are indeed working dogs, I am not willing to accept that they are a requirement. I am not anti-blood sports, but I do not accept that shooting is the only method of culling birds - and to that end there are alternatives to working dogs, and hence working dogs that require their tails to be docked for the prevention of injury.

A very unusual approach , but thought provoking.
I will answer this, at this stage with a simple quick answer.
It is not to cull birds but to put them on the table for dinner, gun dogs are required for this past time, which is legal and legitimate.
The fact that some thing may be unnecessary is a weak argument, in my view, unless you are to apply this to all things deemed unnecessary. Meat eating, cars, etc
Quote by starlightcouple

blue as an aside, can you confirm the highlighted bit to me please.
in other words your dog gets injured " working ". what is the work your dog does to get its tail injured so often. as i have had many a big dog and never had the need to have its tail docked. my dogs have never injured there tails either.

Quote by you then
The work is to flush game which can be shot by others with a gun.

as i thought blue.
sorry but i think this practice is barbaric, medieval and bloody cruel.
if that is what happens to other defenseless animals in the country, i am fecking glad that i am a city boy. what a horrid thing to do. sorry bluefish but obviously i do not understand the workings of the country, and any dog that gets injured doing that " work " i hope suffers the same pain as the poor animal that is shot. and i am a dog lover, but sometimes a massive hater of the human race. sad
No need to be sorry Star, however, you are wrong
It is most definitely not barbaric in any way
Can you tell me that the life and death of the meat that goes onto your table, has been better than those flushed and shot?
What can you tell me about the meat that you eat and its life and death. I would be interested to hear what you know about its life, transportation and death. How it was reared and where it was reared. Can you be sure it had a better life, a better death, less barbaric if you will.
Quote by GnV
And ben the springer

That ben, he get everywhere... lol
:laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove:
Quote by Lizaleanrob
sod it wheres blue i want me tail cut off seems the safer option bolt

Just slip behind the screen and loosen your clothing :twisted:
Quote by starlightcouple

So I got my puppy with its tail, sadly when she started working she injured it time and again, causing her great pain and stress. In the end it had to be removed in an operation. I vowed never to cause such pain to one of my dogs again.

blue as an aside, can you confirm the highlighted bit to me please.
in other words your dog gets injured " working ". what is the work your dog does to get its tail injured so often. as i have had many a big dog and never had the need to have its tail docked. my dogs have never injured there tails either.
The work is to flush game which can be shot by others with a gun. The problem is with the tail and rear end action of spaniels, they are so busy and have very wagging tails. Most problems arise when working the dog through thick cover, this can be hedges, gorse or very thick bramble.
Here are some videos which may demonstrate the cockers speed and enthusiasm for its work so you can perhaps see how it can injure its tail. Every dog in these videos has had its tail docked. only the last third is docked as this is the part which seams most susceptible to damage. Many do not even realise the tails have been shortened.
The thing to remember is these dogs continue to work in this manner in very tight cover of which they can barley squeeze through. Watch the tail action

field trial winner
Here is how a dog is taught how to flush a rabbit but not to chase it, in a rabbit pen

And ben the springer
Quote by Staggerlee_BB

P.S. I forgot to mention those dogs stolen found to be incapable of breeding and subsequently used as bait dogs to train fighting dogs .... they're not pretty to look at I promise you

So, if stolen, a dog would be better off having not been spayed dunno
Better chance of servival if your a breeding machine than a bait dog I would hazard?
It would Blue be better off dead ... this is usually what happens to bait dogs ... much as those foxes you insist have a brief and merciful death ... a breeding bitch suffers for far longer.. take your pick
I thought, and correct me if I am wrong, that you were promoting the spaying of a bitch as its savoir?
A spayed bitch under the two circumstances you outline Blue would quite possibly suffer less
I am now done with this it is beginning to leave my temper frayed and I will not waste my time with those of you attempting to point score on a topic this close to me
I hope the dogs that belong to any of you never have cause to suffer from your ignorance
My intention has not and is not to anger you, or fray your temper
I do debate many subjects that are not just close to me, but part of my life. Shooting and hunting, for one, I have even been called sick and worse. Tail docking of my dog is a subject I feel equally passionate about as you do on rescue dog.
To clarify my position one last time before you walk away, I believe we all learn many things as we make our way through life. Tail docking is one such thing. As mentioned earlier in the thread I wanted my first spaniel to have a tail against the advise of my Grandfather. I had read and heard tail docking was not required. So I got my puppy with its tail, sadly when she started working she injured it time and again, causing her great pain and stress. In the end it had to be removed in an operation. I vowed never to cause such pain to one of my dogs again.
I equally hope that I and others here do not suffer a theft of any of our possessions, pets or working companions.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB

P.S. I forgot to mention those dogs stolen found to be incapable of breeding and subsequently used as bait dogs to train fighting dogs .... they're not pretty to look at I promise you

So, if stolen, a dog would be better off having not been spayed dunno
Better chance of servival if your a breeding machine than a bait dog I would hazard?
It would Blue be better off dead ... this is usually what happens to bait dogs ... much as those foxes you insist have a brief and merciful death ... a breeding bitch suffers for far longer.. take your pick
I thought, and correct me if I am wrong, that you were promoting the spaying of a bitch as its savoir?
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
P.S. I forgot to mention those dogs stolen found to be incapable of breeding and subsequently used as bait dogs to train fighting dogs .... they're not pretty to look at I promise you

So, if stolen, a dog would be better off having not been spayed dunno
Better chance of servival if your a breeding machine than a bait dog I would hazard?
If every gun dog owner had there dog spayed we would not be able to breed gun-dogs.
I am well aware of all the dangers of dogs being stolen. I was born in the countryside, grew up there with dogs and animals all with the potential of being stolen Staggs. Dogs have always been a target for theft just as many other things are. We have to live with these kinds of thing and do what we can to a point to protect our selves.
I was at an event last weekend, any one with an eye on stealing dogs will have been there, and I suspect there probably was, what should I do, not take her out of the house?
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
And she is never left? the door is never opened?? No-one else knows she is a trained unspayed bitch ??

Your dog is a prime target for theft ... have you ever seen the result of over breeding on a bitch ?? my advice would be have her spayed because if she's stolen she will suffer , and believe me dog theft is a growing industry ... so there you go a damn good reason to have your dog or bitch done
You got that evidence to support docking yet ??

Ah, scare tactics.... The kind of thing Tony Blair and his Government used to employ ia an attempt to keep us all in line!
Am I to hang a large sign on the dog to say she has been spayed so all criminals will know?
As a trained dog she is a target for theft. just like any valuables, one has to do what you can to keep them safe.
What you have listed above is not evidence staggs, but opinions, you believe these action may make her safer. That is what I believe about a docked tail.
Blue I'm sorry to have to say this but you are a fool ... I hope you and your dog never have occasion to find out how much of one ...BB tonight arranged transport for a trained police sniffer dog that has been rescued from a travellers camp ... how well trained is your dog ?? go back and look down the lists on doglost this is not a scare tactic it is the truth, your dog is to someone else nothing more than a money making machine there is more than enough proof of that to be found.I could offer you reams and reams of proof sob stories bitches old before their time bitches bred to death but it wont make any difference because your dog is different you are a better more responsible owner ... you are in short the goose be careful not to lay that egg
So are you saying this mutilation is for the benefit of the dog?
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
And she is never left? the door is never opened?? No-one else knows she is a trained unspayed bitch ??

Your dog is a prime target for theft ... have you ever seen the result of over breeding on a bitch ?? my advice would be have her spayed because if she's stolen she will suffer , and believe me dog theft is a growing industry ... so there you go a damn good reason to have your dog or bitch done
You got that evidence to support docking yet ??

Ah, scare tactics.... The kind of thing Tony Blair and his Government used to employ ia an attempt to keep us all in line!
Am I to hang a large sign on the dog to say she has been spayed so all criminals will know?
As a trained dog she is a target for theft. just like any valuables, one has to do what you can to keep them safe.
What you have listed above is not evidence staggs, but opinions, you believe these action may make her safer. That is what I believe about a docked tail.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB

No Blue I'm saying the same as I have done all along ,that docking is an unnecessary surgical procedure,that all surgical procedures carry a risk,that it is not a painless procedure (nip down to the hospital and have them cut your thumb off... I doubt you would enjoy the process).I was merely pointing out to G that docking is not always the clean clinical process that he seems to believe.
It is you Blue who is trying to justify a surgical procedure not you mean castration and spaying of dogs then I really don't need to justify them ... ban them by all means and then deal with the strays,abuse and neglect that would ensue,deal with keeping your kids and dogs indoors to avoid the increased number of dog attacks that would follow ... my argument hasn't fallen down or altered yours it would seem is skidding along on it's arse

I have made a comparison Staggs, two surgical procedures, both involving risk and pain to the animal. I would hazard the docking to be a far smaller procedure. A local Anastasia, quick snip and two stitches
Mine is chosen to prevent stress and pain to a working dog, yours it would seam is done to save us all from bedlam. Who is benefiting from this, is it the dog, is it us, the human race? dunno I have not called for a ban on this staggs, just to point out your double standard, purely because this procedure suits your needs and way of thinking.
I have not felt the need to inflict this pain and distress on my dog.
I am simply pointing out that your argument for castration and spaying is no more justifiable than mine for docking.
My argument is the same as it was at the start, I firmly believe the docking of some breeds to be of benefit to the dog.
And there was me labouring under the misapprehension that you were a responsible dog owner .... do you insist that you sexual partners deal with contraception too?? or is it just your dog ? who is responsible when he escapes because he's got scent of a bitch ?? and I don't care how much control you believe you have over your dog it can happen with your dog just the same as any other ... I'd move well away from any busy roads if I were you
She is a bitch Stags, and when in season she stays in, no rocket science, just common sense and responsible dog ownership wink