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Bluefish2009
Over 90 days ago
Straight Male, 60
Straight Female, 50
UK

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Quote by GnV
Dont believe all you read in the imakeitupmail ben, particularly from such pressure groups wink

He has to Blue, he's their chief correspondent lol
:laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove:
Quote by Ben_Minx
I read today that the Countryside Alliance has called for the docking ban to be lifted if the owner or prospective owner owns a rocking chair. Make of that what you will.

Dont believe all you read in the imakeitupmail ben, particularly from such pressure groups wink
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
curiously of all the dogs I met over the last weekend only one had an injured tail ... a spaniel with a docked tail

Curious indeed, of all the dogs I met over the weekend none had a tail injury all were docked.
This coming weekend I shall be at a working dog test, I shall probably see several 100 dogs, most with tails docked. I shall keep my eyes open for any with injury for you, and report back staggs :thumbup:
Farmers suffering again
THE government’s purge on gas-guzzling vehicles is seriously hurting dale residents who need 4x4s for their everyday lives, a
Teesdale farming support group says.
Upper Teesdale Agricultural Support Services (UTASS) says “extortionate” tax hikes on 4x4 vehicles are punishing rural communities.

Quote by GnV
The planning laws have been revised some what now, Thanks to pressure groups.

I understood to simplify them.
Tell me, how does this sit with the announcement this week that home-owners wishing to improve their property by fitting new windows etc will have to seek permission from the LA first and pay to have other upgrades done first?
confused of France
Not sure on this one Gnv :sad:
Quote by GnV
I bet he don't go..................

Hell hath no fury like a woman (Home Secretary) scorned!
He'll go - even if it's in a box.
As sure as eggs are eggs, he will go wink
Quote by Ben_Minx
I got a proof for ya. Is the insurance premium for a docked dog less than for an intact one? It isnt, therefore the risk reduction is minimal.

Still awaiting the proof Ben, I ask as I have never been aware of this, no question in my policy for docked or un-docked tail. I may be due a reduction in my premium.....
Quote by NEEDFORFUN
we have 5 working border collies and a jack russell. none are docked and we can't see why they should be, they all work hard and seem to be able to keep thier talls under control.
the only dog we have had in the family that was docked was our old english, but that was done before we got her and purely because the kennel club said the breed looked better docked. i say "bollocks ". most docking was, and to an extent, still is being done because the kennel club has historically said "that is how the breed should look.
there is no medical reason for it. people cut thier fingers so, should we all have them cut off at birth?

The only dog from the list above that I would imagine could need its tail docked would be the Jack Russel and only if it was intended to work underground. This kind of work is of coarse now very limited.
Quote by starlightcouple
That because peeple use them for hunting and are fine with there dog ripping another animal to pieces, but are sympathetic towards it hurting its tail in the process of that action loon

If my dog was to rip the rabbit to pieces, I for one would be very disappointed in my training and have to take several steps backwards in my training. In fact I would be upset if it even chased a rabbit. The dog should quarter left and right at your feet until it flushed the rabbit, at this point the dog should sit to allow for the gun to take a shot, if the shot was successful then the dog is then sent for a retrieve. The rabbit is then taken home, prepared for the table, cooked and eaten. A wonderful way to feed one family. A clip below, which I have linked to before shows a spaniel hunting as described above very clearly for you.

Quote by starlightcouple
sorry but as much as i like bluefish and his threads, he is looking at things from a country boys way of life. to a city boy like myself any form of hunting is barbaric, and i still beleeve that the docking of a dogs tail is for the practise of hunting and that entails. nothing i have read in this thread will convince me otherwise. the only sympathy i am leaning towards is the poor little dog whilst having its tail cut off.

I like you Star, and many of your threads also. Yes I am looking at things from a country boys view, difficult not too. This type of hunting is mainly to put food on the table. To remind you the dog does not have his tail cut off, only a small part of the end. I suggest this form of putting meat on the table is no more barbaric, in fact probably less barbaric than the way your meat found its way to the table.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I got a proof for ya. Is the insurance premium for a docked dog less than for an intact one? It isnt, therefore the risk reduction is minimal.

I have no idea, but it would seam, if true, that the insurance company also thinks docking help prevent suffering to the dogs. but there is no question on the form I filled out which asks if the dog has had its tail docked wink
Can you provide any thing to back this up, or is anecdotal?No the insurance company thinks that it will reduce the risk of it having to pay out on tail injuries...it is right,it would also be correct in thinking that leg amputation would reduce the risk of paying out on leg and paw injuries...this does not mean that amputation of either tails or legs is best for the dog
Until you can provide some evidence on this insurance idea, that it is real and not just dreamed up :sleeping: I shall ignore it, I have not heard of this and feel it is purely supposition on you part.
If it were true, which I have never seen any evedence of, the insurance company would do better not to encorrage people not to have the dogs tail docked and charge every one the high primium, because this tail injury thing is so rare..... so you tell me..... If an insurance company feel it has reduced there risk for them then in turn it must have reduced the dogs risk.....
As for your sob story above Staggs, I would like to think you do not judge us all by the same standard. Any one who trains a dog to the standard I do has spent many hours together and has built a bond that is unbreakable no matter what health problems the dog may inconter
Quote by Ben_Minx
I got a proof for ya. Is the insurance premium for a docked dog less than for an intact one? It isnt, therefore the risk reduction is minimal.

I have no idea, but it would seam, if true, that the insurance company also thinks docking help prevent suffering to the dogs. but there is no question on the form I filled out which asks if the dog has had its tail docked wink
Can you provide any thing to back this up, or is anecdotal?
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
a dog is a dog is a dog Staggs.
I don't have one but did many many years ago. She was a labrador.
she injured her paw once on a family walk through the woods. We weren't hunting, or beating or anything like that but nonetheless, she injured her paw. Dogs go roaming about and get into difficulties.
Before you ask, she didn't have her paw amputated but I can see where Blue is coming from on this. You expose your dog to risks by walking it down the street near your home. You are duty bound imho to do what you can to minimise the possibility of injuring it.
In our case, we took her choke chain off in the woods or other open areas so she might not be strangled if it (the choke chain) got caught on a fence, tree branch - whatever. The paw injury was probably as a result of some mindless moron breaking a glass bottle, or something similar. It didn't matter at the time.
Some dogs are working animals. That's what they are bred for. There is no escaping that fact.
Docking a working dog's tail so that it is not injured in circumstances where the risk is high that it might is an act of sensibility, not cruelty.
You are not now going to persuade me to an alternate view. Sincere apologies.

And I would ask where the figures are that show that the risk of injury is high ... I don't object to people working their dogs ...I object to them using that as an excuse to make a financial choice to dock the dogs tail and prevent the POSSIBILITY of higher vets bills to treat any POSSIBLE future injury ... if you are going to dock your animals tail admit to yourself at least why you're really doing it
For me it is all about the dogs well-being, that is my personal reason.
My expensive insurance will cover the vets bill, so your theory, which says more about the way you think than me, has holes in it
Quote by starlightcouple

Why would I wish to be cruel to my dog?

are you saying then blue that your dog felt nothing when its tail was cut off? nothing afterwards either?
if it did then sorry that is cruelty.
Sorry you are incorrect
It had local anesthesia, pain would be minimal, far better than the pain suffered every time she works if it is not done, culminating in an operation in adulthood, far more painful and dangerous wink
Quote by GnV
Maybe star, but it's old hat now. GB is writing his memoirs and spending time on the US speaking circuit.
There's nothing wrong with defying Brussels. Ship the evil buggers out on the first available flight. When the deed is done and dusted, you can't ship the evil bastards back.
Like him or lump him, M. le Président Sarkozy did just that with the Roma when they started shooting Policemen and rioting in the south of France.
Liberalist groups in the European Parliament and the Commission where aghast at the action and threatened the Président and France with sanctions.
Did it come to anything? Absolutely not. M. Sarkozy told them not only where to stick their fingers but how many at a time and nothing more was said.
That's how to deal with the Commission. Ignore the fooking, insignificant, self opinionated prats.
Agree with you about Maggie though; Her "non! non! non!" in the House all those years ago after Jaques Delors said he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the Community, the Commission to be the Executive and the Council of Ministers to be the Senate did wonders for Britain's self-esteem.

:thumbup:
Quote by starlightcouple
just as a question blue.
dobermans and rotties used to have there tails docked. can you answer me as to why they did? was it for medicle reesons, or through the work the dog does? or as i suspect purely for the purpose of making that breed look better, and every other dog of that breed is. also a dog say a boxer without a docked tail, would have been worth less money. true or false?
also dogs use their tails to communicate with other dogs (and with people).
.

Only working breeds can now have there tails docked legally, unlike the breeds you mention above, it is only a small part of the tail, not the whole tail. communication is not therefore an issue. I would not support the docking for cosmetic reasons.
Quote by starlightcouple
just as a question blue.
sorry but it is nothing short of mutilation, and any other reeson than that is an unjustifiable excuse for cruelty and self importance.

Why would I wish to be cruel to my dog?
Quote by GnV
I assume you mean these reasons Blue .... so a small number of dogs sustain tail injuries whilst working (a very small number) therefore all working dogs should have their tails docked .... a small number of dogs break their legs whilst working (leading to amputation) should all dogs then have their legs amputated as a precaution??
Blue I am a trustee of a dog rescue and have just returned from the N.E.S.S.R. Easter dog show (that's a Springer rescue organisation of which I am a member ) I do have a little knowledge myself ... and in my experience the docking of tails when argued down to the core, boils down to 'they just don't look right with tails'

What a totally ridiculous comparison, if I may say. Most unlike you Staggs...
Not sure it would be much help with flushing game either. wink
I totally disagree, my first spaniel had a tail, against my grandfather better judgement, because I felt they looked better with a tail. Sadly once she started working I was proved to be wrong, as she damaged it time after time, until it had to be removed. I felt very guilty for being so pigheaded.
Spaniels are the worst for this kind of damage because of there enthusiasm and tail wagging Technic. Also the kind of cover they work in, plays a major role, and has a major effect. The shoots I currently beat on have woods full of bramble and areas of thick gorse.
Therefore, in my view unless they have a small part of their tails removed, a considerable number of working gun dogs (notably spaniels) will suffer bloody and painful damage to the ends of their undocked tails.
There has been an increase in the numbers of adult gun dogs requiring partial tail amputation in Sweden since docking was banned there.
While the law allows, I will not risk putting a dog of mine through any unnecessary suffering, so will continue to have my working spaniels tails docked.

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
There are no good reasons for docking any dogs tail

I dissagree
What are your reasons ?? non of those you've stated in this thread hold up to examination
I know they do from experience.
Quote by Lizaleanrob
i do wonder about kids that aren't "little shits" though do you think these are missing out on getting extra help because the unruly?

I think there are going to be good teachers and bad teachers, plus everything in-between, just as there always has been.
I had a falling out with a teacher some while back, my step daughter, who is not that well behaved at school was caught writing on a toilet door. For this she received an after school detention, fare enough you might say, as did we. After the detention she came home and proudly announced, "I got a merit". What for? we asked. The end result was that because she had made such a good job of cleaning the door the teacher gave her a merit.
Now this is madness in our view, we happen to know quite a few children at this school and some are working very hard to achieve a merit and never quite getting there. Short sighted, unfair and madness in my view.
More stupidity :sad:
The difference between sitting behind a desk writing propaganda and the reality of life in the wild could not be more stark than in the case of the Hunting Act and its implementation.
Brought into law through a strange cocktail of good and bad intentions, it always had the potential to fall flat on its face when put into practice. That’s not to say that there haven’t been successful prosecutions – there have – but the vast majority of these cases could have been brought under pre-existing legislation. The Hunting Act wasn’t needed to catch these people.
But what about the people who haven’t been caught? ‘Animal abusers’ like West Country farmer Giles Bradshaw, for example, who consistently breaks the law by using his dogs to chase away deer from his woodland and then compounds his criminality by viciously not shooting those deer as the Hunting Act requires. His excuse for this cruel act is that he doesn’t want to see deer killed unnecessarily. Yes, funny that, isn’t it? An animal welfare law that makes you shoot an animal when you would prefer not to. Don’t believe me? Well, here’s the wording from the Act:
“Stalking a wild mammal, or flushing it out of cover, is exempt hunting if the conditions in this paragraph are satisfied”…one of which is…”the stalking or flushing out does not involve the use of more than two dogs”…and another is…”reasonable steps are taken for the purpose of ensuring that as soon as possible after being found or flushed out the wild mammal is shot dead by a competent person.”
In fact, reading the whole Act would be an interesting exercise for many anti hunt people, who simply assume that this law is a good thing and might be surprised by the strange and illogical nature of its drafting. Of course most won’t do that and it is this ignorance that is exploited by the anti-hunting groups.

For me, as long as the docking is for the prevention of further problems I have no problem with this, If it is cosmetic i do have a problem.
As already mentioned, sheep have part of there tail docked for there welfare.
Factory farmed pigs have there's docked before the other pigs chew them off.
Some poultry, ducks, and game birds have part of the upper beak removed(De-beaking) This can be a permanent thing or some thing that grows out, depending on how far up the beak the cut is made.
These and many practices still continue all over the world for animal welfare
Foxy is correct, we do have some strange double standards between pets, animals that we eat and our wildlife
Quote by tyracer
on the plus side i think its great news.
these birds are fantastic and each time ive been walking in scotland and other countries to see them in the air is just a wonderful sight.

:thumbup:
Quote by Lizaleanrob
Haha, I bet ya cant buy a book for miles.

Thats my next thread, price of books has shot through the roof lol
in your experience are they cheaper or more expencive in rural areas bolt
I will leave that for the OFT to dicide :lol:
I will be crossing you off my Christmas card list wink
Quote by Ben_Minx
Haha, I bet ya cant buy a book for miles.

Thats my next thread, price of books has shot through the roof lol
Quote by Lizaleanrob
i am told they do eat eggs blue which can also be poisoned ?

Thank you rob, I had no idea of that :thumbup:
Quote by annejohn
seeing as how virtually all meat eating species,including humans,in our murky past,will take a free meal,why do you assume that sparrowhawks don't?

Because I have always been told that they do not eat carrion. Never seen one on a carcase either
After much searching I may have found my answer
Sparrowhawks are not Carrion feeders... like Buzzard's & Red Kite's for example, or Crows and Jackdaws. Sparrowhawks would not come down to a roadkill for example. The Red Kite has survived around people for centuries, simply by scavenging off food scraps people would throw out.
In medieval times the Red Kite was known as a "Shite hawk". They earned this reputation because they would cruise the muddy streets of towns and villages and remove any scraps thrown out of the front doors of people's houses ( no putting the wheelie bin out in those days) while at the same time shitting on the housewives clean washing as they flew past...!!! That's how the name "shite hawk" originated...
You cannot lure down a Sparrowhawk by simply putting out a carcass picked up from the road.
So why I hear you ask... have I seen pictures of such things...? If a Sparrowhawk has come down to a carcass, which is rare, this Sparrowhawk is usually at the end of it's days...
It would usually be a very sick juvenile that had lost the ability to hunt for itself completely and out of desperation has chosen to eat carrion.
So what's wrong with that.. am I not doing the bird a favour...? No..! the Sparrowhawk that has chosen to eat carrion, by the time it is eating carrion is so low that death is imminent anyway and regardless of taking carrion it will die anyway.

Dramatic fall in number of Scotland's poisoned birds of prey
Good news of coarse, but I am confused and wonder if anyone can shed some light please.
Last year saw a sharp fall in the number of illegally poisoned birds of prey in Scotland, in advance of tough new laws making landowners liable for persecution by their gamekeepers.
The latest map of poisoning locations released by the Scottish government on Wednesday showed that there were 10 incidents in 2011 involving 16 dead birds of prey, roughly half the 22 incidents recorded the year before, which involved 28 deaths by poisoning.
The drop in the number of killings last year, which involved seven buzzards, four red kites, two peregrine falcons, two sparrowhawks and one golden eagle, has raised hopes that a concerted campaign by police, wildlife agencies, Scottish ministers and landowners has begun making an impact.


I wonder how you poison a bird of prey that, to the best of my knowledge, does not eat carrion
Quote by Ben_Minx
"
All UK legislation has now been passed and enacted as follows;
The docking of dogs' tails was banned in England from 6 April 2007 and in Wales from 28 March 2007 but with exemptions from the ban for certain working dogs, and for medical treatment. A total ban in Scotland took effect 30 April 2007
There is also a ban on the showing of docked dogs (all dogs docked after the commencement date of 6 April/28 March) at events to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee. However, this ban does not apply to dogs shown for the purpose of demonstrating their working ability.
The exemption for working dogs allows a dog that is likely to perform certain specified types of work to have its tail docked by a veterinary surgeon. The dog will have to be less than 5 days old and the veterinary surgeon will have to certify that he or she has seen specified evidence that the dog is likely to work in specified areas. Puppies being docked must be microchipped, either at the time of docking or when the vet considers they are old enough. The types of dog that are allowed to be docked and the types of evidence needed, is detailed below.
Puppies from certain working dogs may be docked if evidence is provided to the vet that it is likely to be worked in connection with law enforcement, activities of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, emergency rescue, lawful pest control, or the lawful shooting of animals. It is accepted that in a litter, not all puppies docked will be found suitable for work.
"

:thumbup:
I had to provide a letter of intent to work my cocker from the shoot I now work her on, if that makes sense.