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Bluefish2009
Over 90 days ago
Straight Male, 60
Straight Female, 50
UK

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Quote by MartnJewl
This could clean up the debate a little

So is it one in three as the OP suggests or less than one in five in your link?
Make what you will of it.
“One million (or one in six) working adults in the capital cannot read with confidence “
So far as we are able to tell this figure is sound, albeit based on a national rate and rounded up slightly. The one in six ratio is highlighted in a statistical briefing from the National Literary Trust which stated: “One in six people in the UK struggle with literacy.”
Fortunately since this is footnoted we can trace the figure back to a 2003 study for the Government which estimated that in England: “5.2 million adults (16% of the population) at Entry level 3 or below”
So, taking this admittedly slightly dated figure, and applying it to the 5,2 million working age adults (based on 2009 estimates for London) we get a figure of a little over 830,000. Not quite a million but not drastically far off.

Key findings include:
Literacy
5.2 million adults (16% of the population) at Entry level 3 or below
17.8 million adults (56% of the population) below Level 2
22% of adults in the North East have Entry Level literacy compared with
12% in the South East
Numeracy
6.8 million adults (21% of the population) at Entry level 2 or below
23.8 million adults(75% of the population) below Level 2
54% of adults in the North East have Entry Level numeracy compared with 41% in the South East'.
The results are available on the searchable Readwriteplus /readwriteplus_skillsforlifesurvey/
Quote by MidsCouple24
No need for report is there lol
The governments latest declared intention to relax planning laws in rural areas means they will soon be as populated as everywhere else so spending hundreds of thousands on this research is totally unecessary :lol:
I have no proof, but I wouldn't mind betting that the average townie knows the first name of less people in his street than the average village dweller kows of people in the whole village :lol:

The planning laws have been revised some what now, Thanks to pressure groups.
Your second comment does have some truth to it, but this, in my view is sadly on the decline. I visit the village I grew up in on a very regular basis, I only know the older generation who live there now, not one of my peers can afford to buy a home there.
Quote by MartnJewl
I'm confused. In a survey of over 300 dog owners, only 17 reported a tail injury sustained outside. Even if we (wrongly IMO) assume all 17 were working dogs, it hardly makes a strong case for allowing tail docking of working dogs.
"Dogs with docked tails significantly less likely to sustain tail injuries says Veterinary Record" - No shit Sherlock. Dogs with no legs less likely to break legs too.

That would depend upon whether you were the owner of one of those dogs i would guess.
It is not the whole tail which is removed, spaniels are particularly susceptible to getting the end of there tails damaged.
When I was younger and thought I new better than the older generation, I had a springer spaniel who's tail I did not have docked. Like many I thought it cruel and unnecessary. I lived to regret that decision, both for the welfare of the dog and my pocket. After repeated trips to the vet after working her in the undergrowth the end result was a badly damaged tail. I had to fork out to have part of it removed.
It is not banned here in England, this is regards a Scottish law
Quote by starlightcouple
if nature wanted certain dogs not to have a tail , then nature would have intervened. i find it a horrid practise in any circumstance to remove a dogs tail.

I would agree with the sentiment, but there is good reason, based in my view on animal welfare grounds to dock a small amount of tail on certain breeds.
Dogs with docked tails significantly less likely to sustain tail injuries says Veterinary Record
Dogs with docked tails are significantly less likely to sustain tail injuries, finds research published in this week’s Veterinary Record.
Among the 138,212 dogs seen by vets at the 52 practices during the study period, 281 were treated for a tail injury.
The owners of 224 of these injured dogs, as well as a random sample of 799 owners whose dogs had not been treated for tail injury were sent a questionnaire on dog tail injuries and docking.
Only 97 of the owners whose dogs needed treatment and 227 of those whose dogs had not been injured replied.
But their responses indicated that around one in three tail injuries (36%; 35 cases) had occurred at home as a result of the dog knocking its tail against a wall, kennel wall or other household object.
A further 17.5% (17 cases) were sustained outdoors, while 14.4% (14 cases) were caused by the tail being caught in a door. In 15 (15.5%) other causes were cited; and in 16 (16.5%), the cause was unknown. Almost half of the injuries (44%) were recurrent.
Over half the cases were treated with drugs and dressings, but in almost one in three cases, amputation was required. Eleven dogs did not need any treatment.
Certain breeds seemed to be more at risk, with springer and cocker spaniels almost six times as likely to sustain a tail injury as labradors and retrievers


Pros and cons
Quote by Ben_Minx
The problem with the exemption for working dogs is unscrupulous breeders and their vets use it as an excuse to dock pets.

I agree, this can and does happen, but can not be a legitimate reason to make working dogs suffer in my view.
Quote by Ben_Minx
I heartily agree that there is a need for good public transport.

And I will concede that rural life is not hard for all, but I will support any campaign/pressure group that helps highlight the plight of those who are suffering and if that brings help to those that need it, to me this is a good thing.
Quote by Ben_Minx
Do you disagree with my description of the methodology?

What they have done seems fair and logical to me, based on essential minimum, transport instance, pensioners in rural settings can not always just hop on a bus
Are any of these untruths?
One in six working Londoners is functionally illiterate
25 per cent who are leaving, at the age of 11, unable properly to read or write.
Quote by noladreams
Nothing to do with literacy, or am I misreading?
I'd also argue it's nothing to do with teachers either, given that the articles you've highlighted are about exam boards. dunno



As you say, nothing to do with literacy
But it is to do with teachers and perhaps a failing of our education system
An undercover investigation by The Telegraph revealed how exam boards are 'cheating' by helping teachers at secretive coaching seminars which cost hundreds of pounds to attend.
Quote by tyracer
Caution?!
Hmmmm... sometimes being cautious is hard wink
with everything.
think about it first.
exercise caution.
and after weighing it all up you'll be where you want to.

On the other hand, looking back, I spent 30 years being over cautious dunno
dont do 'll miss out on a great time.
Making up for lost time lol
Tail docking ban in Scotland, causing animal suffering or preventing it?
Delight As Ban On Tail-Docking In Scotland Confirmed Campaigners Call For Review Of All Other Animal Mutilations
Advocates for Animals has welcomed today’s confirmation that the docking of all dogs’ tails will be banned in Scotland. The Scottish Executive today announced that the ban is to come into force on 30 April 2007.
Advocates has campaigned for an end to tail-docking on the grounds that it is an unnecessary mutilation that causes pain and distress. The animal protection organisation has also called for all other animal mutilations to be reviewed.


THE Scottish Gamekeepers Association (SGA) is putting pressure on the Scottish government to end the ban on the tail docking of working dogs, claiming it is causing unnecessary suffering.
Tail docking was outlawed under the 2006 Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act after consultations with veterinary bodies and the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA).
Animal Welfare Legislation covering the rest of the UK contains an exemption allowing working dogs such as spaniels, retrievers and terriers, to have their tales docked – but not in Scotland.
The SGA claims the ban means that working dogs. which require to work over and under dense cover such as bramble, are now suffering avoidable injury, leading to costly and painful amputations.
It is claimed that many gamekeepers and farmers are being forced to travel across the Border to source docked puppies.
The Scottish Government has now commissioned Glasgow University Veterinary School to conduct research into the frequency and nature of tail injury in working dogs and terriers.
Their figures will be published this summer, with many in the countryside hoping the evidence points to the ban being overturned.

Comon sense prevails at last, the day had to come when the RSPB had to face facts and tackle predation on there reserves. Gwyn Williams seams to speak very sensibly on this matter. However, many members are not happy. So I wondered what your views may be on this subject
RSPB members’ fury at society’s policy
RSPB policymakers are increasingly recognising the value of predation control and wildlife management on the Society’s reserves, despite opposition from members, writes Graham Downing.
Speaking at the annual BASC Wildfowling Conference on 24 March at Sutton Coldfield, the RSPB’s head of reserves, Gwyn Williams, told delegates that reserve wardens were now tackling fox predation.
He also said that the RSPB had stuck to its guns over its support for the elimination of ruddy duck — now believed to number fewer than 100 following a Government-backed control scheme.
Mr Williams said: “It was difficult for us to get right. We didn’t duck the problem or ignore it; we had to recognise the need for control, and the need to remove those birds.
“We’ve lost quite a lot of members over it, and I’ve lost count of the number of letters I’ve written on the subject. The chief executive of Animal Aid even called me a fascist, but we’ve stuck to our policy.”
BASC had been “fantastic” in joining with the RSPB to help stamp out illegal killing of hen harriers, he said.
“One of the easiest ways of dealing with this would be to play the animal welfare card,” Mr Williams said. “But if that adds to the unwillingness of the public to accept predator control in the wider countryside, that could backfire on us in the long term.”

Here is a fairly recent article written by Jim Barrington, (James (Jim) Barrington is a former Executive Director of the League Against Cruel Sports. He has been involved in various animal welfare campaigns for almost 40 years) a man whose opinion I have grown to respect very highly, a man motivated purely by his drive to protect all animals. It is, in my view, well written, balanced and a sensible approach to an emotive and complicated issue.
Over the years, I and others here have debated hunting with hounds several times, I thought perhaps it time to move the debate on to a proper law to replace the ill thought out hunting act we currently have in place.
"We need to achieve a proper balance between the needs of animal welfare, the need to avoid deliberate cruelty and the rights of the countryside to pursue its sports such as hunting." So said Labour peer Lord Donoughue in explaining his thinking about repeal of the Hunting Act to the Sunday Telegraph in 2010.
The long-running controversy over whether or not hunting with dogs should be banned is an example of how easily an important issue can be hijacked and turned into a purely political argument, quite divorced from reality. It would be almost laughable if it were not for the fact that wild animals are now suffering in greater numbers. Lord Donoughue sums up the challenge very clearly and indeed has been at the forefront to find a solution.
If everyone who is genuinely concerned about the welfare of wild mammals could take a step back from what they think they know about hunting -- and hunting people -- it might just open the door to a fair resolution to an issue that remains stubbornly difficult for many legislators.
Where does one begin? Well, shouldn't every law start with a principle? Certainly the prevention of unnecessary suffering is a principled aim, but to then assume that all one has to do is ban hunting with dogs to achieve this is as naïve as it is ridiculous. Yet it was this simple assumption that played a large part in putting the hunting ban into law. Here's what a former director of the International Fund for Animal Welfare claimed during one of the many debates beforehand, "All we need to do is look at what happens in areas where there is already no hunting or where hunting has ended. There we find no hunting and no welfare problem either." So take hunting with dogs out of the picture and everything would be fine, would it? This is the sort of crass nonsense that has conned the public and some gullible MPs into believing that a hunting ban is a good thing.
Back to that principled position. For many years the legal definition of cruelty has been the deliberate infliction of unnecessary suffering. It's obvious that legislation which outlaws all unnecessary suffering to all wild mammals in all circumstances is not only broader than a ban on hunting with dogs but fairer too. Furthermore, such a law would be far more workable than the Hunting Act, which is confusing and based on an assumption of cruelty. It contains illogical clauses that create technical offences rather than ones that genuinely improve animal welfare.

The whole article can be read here;
Quote by noladreams
Caution?!
Hmmmm... sometimes being cautious is hard wink
with everything.
think about it first.
exercise caution.
and after weighing it all up you'll be where you want to.

On the other hand, looking back, I spent 30 years being over cautious dunno
Quote by Lizaleanrob
Just because you say it over and over and over again doesnt make it any more true.

have you any evidence to the contrary ben to help substain your opinion
“That one can convince one’s opponents with printed reasons, I have not believed since the year 1764. It is not for that purpose that I have taken up my pen, but rather merely to annoy them, and to give strength and courage to those on our side, and to make it known to the others that they have not convinced us.” G.C. Lichtenberg wink
Quote by noladreams

if you really cannot see the truth in what Ofsted say, then there is no point you making any further opinionated comments. innocent

Of course that is if you accept the validity and judgement of Ofsted in the first place. There are many people I know who don't.
I totally agree with this, they have there faults, but they are one of the few ways we can judge schools.
Quote by Steve
Derv prices

Rural / Urbon
Babergh 144.9 / Birmingham 139.7
Breckland 142.9 / Bolton 139.7
Chichester 144.9 / Bradford 139.7
Cornwall 143.9 / Bury 139.7
Cotswold 144.9 / Dartford 139.7
Daventry 145.9 / Dudley 139.7
Derbyshire Dales 143.9 / Enfield 141.9
East Cambridgeshire 144.9 / Gateshead 139.9
Fenland 143.9 / Gravesham 139.7
Forest Heath 143.9 / Kirklees 140.7
Forest of Dean 143.9 / Knowsley 139.7
Harborough 142.9 / Leeds 139.9
Huntingdonshire 142.9 / Liverpool 139.9
Maldon 143.9 / Manchester 139.7
Mendip 143.9 / Newcastle upon Tyne 139.9
Mid Devon 142.9 / North Tyneside 139.7
North Dorset 142.9 / Oldham 139.7
North Norfolk 143.9 / Rochdale 139.7
Purbeck 146.9 / Salford 139.7
Ribble Valley 143.9 / Sandwell 139.7
Richmondshire 143.9 / Solihull 140.9
Rutland 143.9 / Spelthorne 141.5
Todays average prices
average / min / max
Diesel / / /

If there's anywhere in B-ham selling diesel at 139.7 I'd like to know where....
Our local supermarkets (which are known to sell the cheapest fuel) are way more than that.....
Look them up for your self, they change on an hourly basis, the link is there for all to see and use
Quote by Ben_Minx
Just because you say it over and over and over again doesnt make it any more true.

This applies to all equally :thumbup:
Quote by northwest-cpl
I do not think it has been ignored, IMO, from my point of view the problems are often resulting from lack of basics, If those basics are not in place the advanced stuff suffers

And my point would be that many children today can actually do the advanced stuff and many children in yesteryear couldn't do the basics. There are many adults that went through the education system in the glory days that are illiterate and have poor numeracy skills. Adult education is not a new phenomenum.
I agree to a point, I will relate to decorating, for a good end result, good preparation is vital. If the preparation is poor the end result looks OK, until you inspect it closely.
There are still people going through the education system that are illiterate and have poor numeracy skills.
Quote by northwest-cpl
Clearly history was a bit thin in your day too. There was no such thing as ICT in the 50's and 60's cos there was no such thing as computers outside the most high-tech universities. The home computer only came into existance in the mid ot late 80's.

Yes , I know perfectly well there were no home computers until the 80s. My point is, if you moan about lack of standards today you have to take account of the many things that children can do today that children of the 50s and 60s couldn't do. That seems to be ignored in this thread.
I do not think it has been ignored, IMO, from my point of view the problems are often resulting from lack of basics, If those basics are not in place the advanced stuff suffers
Quote by Ben_Minx
The cost of living in this remote district is incredibly cheap.

'The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is asking people living and working in rural areas to contribute to a fact-finding study into the challenges facing consumers and businesses in remote communities across the UK and you are invited to contribute.
Let them know your views
This was an interesting report when it came out;
A team from Loughborough University that calculates the Joseph Rowntree Foundation's minimum income standard index carried out the research for the CRC.
This index is based on what items people think households need to be able to afford to achieve a minimum acceptable living standard.
The report found that, with low pay more common in rural areas, many rural workers fall well short of being able to afford their essential needs.
The findings show that the more remote the area, the greater the extra costs.
According to the report, to afford a minimum standard of living a single person needs to earn at least:
£15,600 a year in a rural town;
£17,900 a year in a village;
£18,600 in a hamlet or the remote countryside.
When factors such as taxes and tax credits are taken into account, that equates to a difference with the urban figure of £14,400 in take home pay of 10-20%, researchers said.
'Wage gap'
The report also found:
A car is a significant additional cost for rural households because people said public transport is inadequate
Many rural dwellers face higher energy bills because they are not always connected to mains gas, so must use other fuels
In a hamlet, a family of four needs more per week than a similar urban family
The report's author, Dr Noel Smith, said: "We were struck by the gap between how much people would need to earn to meet these rural requirements and the level of some of the wages actually available.
"Workers in the most basic rural jobs can work very hard yet still fall well short of what they need for an acceptable standard of living."
Nicola Lloyd, executive director at the CRC, said: "Although it is now widely recognised that one in five rural households experience poverty, this is the first time we've also had reliable data to show the minimum cost of living in the countryside is higher than in the city."
Representatives from the Office of Fair Trading met with residents in Kinlochewe, Wester Ross as the cost of fuel, food and delivery charges came under scrutiny.
The picturesque village of Kinlochewe in Wester Ross is popular with visitors, but people living there feel they're penalised by a higher cost of living than other parts of the UK.
It is thought that people living in remote or rural areas can pay up to £40 a month more than those in the towns, with vital items such as fuel and food at the top of the list of more expensive goods.
The Office of Fair Trading is on a fact-finding mission to seven rural locations across the UK. The visit to Kinlochewe was the only stop in mainland Scotland.
In two weeks the investigators will visit Shetland, before findings are published in the summer.
Quote by MidsCouple24
I went to a remote community once, in the morning when we arrived everything in the shop was extremely cheap a bottle of Bacardi or Vodka was just £3, tinned foods were as cheap as any Main UK Asda, but that changed when the locals realised that they had outsiders in the town and by the afternoon a bottle of Whiskey had risen to £36, most tinned goods and goodies had been removed from the shelves and hidden and the local pub put us a notice to say "locals only".
A nice warm welcome we thought :sad:

You must have had quite an influence on them lol