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Bluefish2009
Over 90 days ago
Straight Male, 60
Straight Female, 50
UK

Forum

Quote by starlightcouple
Blue I personally would say ban it all, lock stock and every stinking huntsman.
It is barbaric that people still get a kick out of doing this.
The law is being openly broken Blue every weekend as well you know. I was not aware that hunting had not been banned totally, but these people are being allowed to push the boundaries of the law, and if the RSPCA are not prepared to stop them, who the fuck will? Certainly not the police it seems, or the public prosecutors or indeed the Government.
So who exactly are these people responsible too? One hunt fined at a huge cost of and yet many other hunts go unstopped or unchecked. It is about time that the police stepped in and arrested anyone hunting via a pack of rabid dogs, and even more rabid toffy nose hunters on horses. Where the fuck are the police? Maybe the next hunt I should take a black friend of mine along and get him to phone the police to say one of these huntsmen had racially abused him. Fuck all weekend leave would be cancelled and police cars would turn up in their tens. :twisted: Now that would be a fact, as political correctness runs the police nowadays.

What is barbaric, in my humble view, is to ban the most humane method of control. To call hunting barbaric, is to totally misunderstand wildlife. Wild animals do not live in a civilised society, and the fact you put them there in your mind do them no favours whatsoever. It demonstrates a profound ignorance of the true role of hunting in wild life management and animal welfare.
Leaving the stinking huntsmen, and the rabid dogs dunno to one side to for the moment, what we should be thinking of is the welfare of the fox, and not any pre-conceved prejudices people may have about the huntaman. The foxes welfare would be best served with the continuation of hunting with hounds, the only selective, non wounding method of control available
Quote by starlightcouple
Hunting within the law? So these people go out with their hounds and chase what scent exactly again? Then oh dear the hounds pick up a fox scent. The hounds follow the scent and then the fox. Oh dear too late as the hounds have now found the fox, and are ripping it to pieces whilst still alive.
Sorry Mr policeman and Mr Judge. We were trying to hunt within the law but could not get to that poor fox on time. What a load of fucking crap. You know it blue and so does everyone else. Trying to be smart arses seems to be working very well for the rich huntsmen to getting around the law, and the law seems to be allowing this law breaking to continue with impunity.
For the law to work these hunts themselves need to be banned. The use of hounds should be banned also. The reason this law is not working as was intended by the likes of the RSPCA, is that it is being openly broken and then pathetic excuses made to evade prosecution.
I hope they fall off their horses, and what happens when you fall onto your neck sometimes?

As far as I am aware most hunts will be acting within the law :thumbup:
If the law is not working as intended that will surely be down to those who wrote the law, the law makers will be the ones at fault
Actually to a point I agree Star, I would say this however, one of two things should happen, either an outright ban or no ban at all, one or the other.
You use some very emotive words star, like, "ripping it to pieces whilst still alive", every thing that is killed, is killed while it is alive. Hunting foxes with hounds is almost certainly the least cruel way of killing a fox, the fact is you just do not see the other method employed. For instance, shooting a fox with birdshot at the wrong distance is perfectly legal, but far more cruel than hunting with hounds. Hunting with hounds is selective and non wounding, ie the fox either lives or dies, never ever wounded
Dr Fox's study involved 199 shooters in England, Scotland and Wales shooting at 1,970 paper foxes. While the best guns wounded one fox for every 10 killed, others --- even when adhering to government guidelines --- wounded 13 for every 10 killed. Worse still, guns who did not follow guidelines (which are not mandatory) wounded up to 10 times more foxes.
From here,
Foxes: Morgan (2000), in his submission to the Inquiry, from records over the last few years, estimated that, for a Welsh gun pack using hounds to drive foxes towards waiting shotguns, around 15-20% of foxes were wounded and not killed outright. (personal communication), using data from a variety of sources, has estimated of the 135,000 foxes shot annually in the UK as many as 40% are wounded. What percentage of foxes that are shot, escape wounded and are not dispatched, is uncertain. In the case of a gun pack the majority will be caught since hounds are available to follow up and kill wounded foxes. But in the case of lamping, which happens at night and does not involve hounds, none will be followed up.
Quote by Trevaunance
Trail hunting is permitted, where an artificial trail is laid and the hunt follow that, one obvious problem with this is no one knows if the hounds are following the laid artificial scent or have crossed the path of a live fox, until its too late. In these circumstances the hunts man must do his utmost to stop the kill.
On that note, had the persons on the video been doing so when the footage was taken there probably would have been no case to answer.

Probably is a loose word, but we all know there is a lot of ambiguity in the law. I havent viewed the footage, but your saying the huntsman didn't do his job?
And your still defending them?
There are other exemptions from the ban;
Quote by Bluefish2009
Rats and rabbits etc are

not actually what we are talking about and therefore irrelevant
and to save me quoting you several times neither are birds, hares, flushing, game birds, wild birds.
Finally many of your references refer to 'being shot by a competent person'. Do many huntsmen shout 'Tally ho' with a shot gun under their arm? I ask because the traditional image is that hounds do the killing not a shotgun.
Not watched the video my self, only know what other have said, sounds to me they have were encouraging the hounds rather than trying to call them off. Probably is a loose word.
To my knowledge, no where have I defended them or there actions
You asked was there exemption, I supplied them dunno
Foxes can be flushed to waiting guns by no more than two hounds
Stag hunting has always ended by the stag being shot, never by a kill by the hounds
It would be illegal to permit the hounds to kill, must be done with a gun, not normally the huntsman
Quote by Paddy
Out of the predicted 250,000 people that you are saying will be hunting with hounds on Boxing day, how many will be carrying out legal hunts?
I only ask because hunting a scent is allowed is it not?
It is not illegal to hunt an unspecified mammal provided you don't catch it
You may hunt on private land
you may hunt an animal you release yourself
These are forms of legal hunting with hounds
Are you in the belief that 250,000 people will ride horses and hunt with hounds to catch and kill a Fox in direct contravention of the Law? or will they stay within it and legally hunt?

They will hunt within the law
Trail hunting is permitted, where an artificial trail is laid and the hunt follow that, one obvious problem with this is no one knows if the hounds are following the laid artificial scent or have crossed the path of a live fox, until its too late. In these circumstances the hunts man must do his utmost to stop the kill.
On that note, had the persons on the video been doing so when the footage was taken there probably would have been no case to answer.
There are other exemptions from the ban;
...................................................
? In particular, the dog is brought under
sufficiently close control to ensure that it
does not prevent or obstruct the mammal
being shot.
Bollix!
I own 3 Beagles and a Fox plus a Puggle!, whilst it's in their nature to " sniff" and rule out Foxes/Rabbits , etc. all 5 live in harmony!
I own purely for the pleasure of having 5 loyal animals that show afffection and I to return that loyalty too each of them!
Paddy
Bollix to what? its a list of exemptions from the hunting act dunno
(many of which I have cut to save space)
Quote by Trevaunance
So 250,000 people are going to hunt within the law. That looks to me like the Law is working as intended.

Yes I agree, to a point
this may be easyer to read/follow
Drag / Trail hunting
A number of hunts are drag or trail hunting. This normally involves a quad bike with a drag (normally a sock) tied to the back being pulled along the ground. Drag / trails can also be laid by a rider or a person on foot pulling the drag (sock)
The sock ideally needs to be put into liquid (for example, boiled foxes or artificial scent) a number of times during a hunting day to be any use as a drag, this is because the scent will fade after a short while.
Flushing to Gun
Some hunts are using a piece of the legislation that allows no more than two dogs to flush a deer, fox or hare to guns.
The dogs cannot chase or kill the animal. The animal must be shot by a competent marksman.
Using a bird of prey
A number of hunts have adopted the loophole of using a bird of prey.
This means if a hunt were to take a bird of prey out hunting with them, they can use as many dogs as they wish to flush out a deer, fox or hare to the waiting bird of prey.
The bird of prey can legally kill the animal but if the hounds were to do so it could be illegal hunting.
Quote by Trevaunance
Out of the predicted 250,000 people that you are saying will be hunting with hounds on Boxing day, how many will be carrying out legal hunts?
I only ask because hunting a scent is allowed is it not?
It is not illegal to hunt an unspecified mammal provided you don't catch it
You may hunt on private land
you may hunt an animal you release yourself
These are forms of legal hunting with hounds
Are you in the belief that 250,000 people will ride horses and hunt with hounds to catch and kill a Fox in direct contravention of the Law? or will they stay within it and legally hunt?

They will hunt within the law
Trail hunting is permitted, where an artificial trail is laid and the hunt follow that, one obvious problem with this is no one knows if the hounds are following the laid artificial scent or have crossed the path of a live fox, until its too late. In these circumstances the hunts man must do his utmost to stop the kill.
On that note, had the persons on the video been doing so when the footage was taken there probably would have been no case to answer.
There are other exemptions from the ban;
Rats and rabbits are exempt from the
Hunting Act. Permission of the landowner
or occupier is required to hunt them
Any number of dogs may be used (with
permission of the landowner or occupier)
to hunt a hare that has been shot.
Flushing of Mammals The Act allows dogs to
be used for stalking and flushing of wild mammals,
subject to a number of restrictions. No more
that 2 dogs may be used to "stalk or flush" a
wild mammal from cover for defined purposes.
? The protection of game birds, wild birds,
fisheries, crops and livestock; obtaining meat;
and field trials.
? To qualify as exempt, the above activities
must always be done with the permission of
the owner or occupier of the land and
“reasonable steps must be taken for the
purpose of ensuring that as soon as possible
after being found, or flushed, the wild
mammal is shot dead by a competent
person.” (Competent person is undefined
in the Act).
? Each dog used in the stalking or flushing out
must be kept under sufficiently close control
to ensure that it does not prevent or
obstruct the shooting of the mammal in
question.
? A single dog may be used below ground to
“stalk or flush” a wild mammal for the sole
purpose of preventing or reducing serious
damage to game birds or wild birds being
kept or preserved for shooting. In this case,
the person using the dog must carry written
permission (or evidence that he himself is
the landowner), which he must produce if
asked by a exemption also
requires that all the following conditions
are met:
? Reasonable steps are taken for the purpose
of ensuring that as soon as possible after
being found the wild mammal is flushed
out from below ground.
? Reasonable steps are taken for the purpose
of ensuring that as soon as possible after
being flushed out from below ground the
wild mammal is shot dead by a competent
person.
? In particular, the dog is brought under
sufficiently close control to ensure that it
does not prevent or obstruct the mammal
being shot.
Quote by starlightcouple
So people are openly breaking the law, so the question I want asked is why are they being allowed to do so?
For as a tax paying member of the public I have to stay within the law of the land or face prosecution, and yet the toffy nose set are it seems allowed to flaunt the law almost at will.
There always seems to be laws for one section of society, and another set of laws for another. Depends who you know and how much money and influence you have sometimes, and certainly that is the case it seems in the hunting fraternity.

There is not a ban on hunting, they must simply hunt within the law
You seam to have it in for the toff's this week star lol the toffs are heavily out numbered by a broad spectrum of people
Quote by Stevie_and_Kitty
And a not so proud moment for Richard Sumner smackbottom

Well could play in favour of the hunts, strangley as the hunting ban did dunno
In market squares and outside country pubs around Britain, this coming Boxing Day will see gathered up to a quarter of a million people. They will represent a complete cross section of rural society, from fleeces to flat hats, from those elegantly attired in black jackets astride chestnut hunters to youngsters in outsize crash hats on skewbald ponies, all awaiting the flash of a scarlet jacket and the sound of the hunting horn as the foxhounds arrive to take centre stage.
Nearly eight years after hunting with dogs was banned, some 280 packs of hounds are still going strong. Boxing Day may be hunting's most high profile meet, but it is only one day in a fixture list which continues week in, week out from November to March. Indeed, there are probably more people going hunting today than before the Hunting Act.


you don't think there are more participants because of the ban then?
Sorry, the point I was trying to make, but badly, was that the ban and the publicity leading up to it worked as a massive recruiting tool for hunting, More people have been hunting since the ban than were before
Quote by Trevaunance
And a not so proud moment for Richard Sumner smackbottom

Well could play in favour of the hunts, strangley as the hunting ban did dunno
In market squares and outside country pubs around Britain, this coming Boxing Day will see gathered up to a quarter of a million people. They will represent a complete cross section of rural society, from fleeces to flat hats, from those elegantly attired in black jackets astride chestnut hunters to youngsters in outsize crash hats on skewbald ponies, all awaiting the flash of a scarlet jacket and the sound of the hunting horn as the foxhounds arrive to take centre stage.
Nearly eight years after hunting with dogs was banned, some 280 packs of hounds are still going strong. Boxing Day may be hunting’s most high profile meet, but it is only one day in a fixture list which continues week in, week out from November to March. Indeed, there are probably more people going hunting today than before the Hunting Act.

Quote by Trevaunance
We can only agree to dissagree then, for me the maths tell the story

And for me the charity doing what it has done for 188 years and bringing criminals to book tells the story.
:thumbup:
Indeed, a proud moment for Richard Martin
Quote by HnS
Talk Talk, only two faster is b BT and Plussnet, buy only marginally

Rural Dorset

Blue,
So BT and Plusnet, wonders if there is a reason for this (rhetorical)
Plusnet is an internet service provider (ISP) based in Sheffieldand was floated on the Alternative Investment Market in July 2004, making them a public limited company (Plusnet plc).
It has been owned since 30 January 2007 by BT Group, but operates as a separate business.
Plusnet also operates the Metronet brand in the UK.
Though to be honest any of the other ISPs could improve their service to you if they wished to take advantage of LLB and install their kit in the local Exchange, but guessing they can't see any profit in it and as using basically same BT provided infrastructure it wouldn't be much if faster, if at all.
Every picture tells a story
Quote by Trevaunance
At a time they are making redundancy's I believe you are incorrect :thumbup:

Quote by Bluefish2009
, could have been spent on animals care, now its been wasted it can not, simple maths

The latest figures available show the Income in 2010 for the RSPCA was 115 Million. Staff costs alone were over 40% at 49.5 million and it's pension shortfall was 42 million. Quite clearly the largest cost to the RSPCA is staff and therefore it's logical that they must make changes.
In the words of Chief executive Gavin Grant: “Some hard decisions must be taken. Significant job losses in administrative areas are sadly inevitable but I will protect frontline animal welfare services. Abused and abandoned animals need our help and they will get it. Our policy of ‘zero tolerance’ of animal abuse and prosecution of the perpetrators will continue.”
So once again, I don't see that any animals will be killed as a direct result of this court action that has seen criminals punished under the Law.
We can only agree to dissagree then, for me the maths tell the story
Quote by Ben_Minx

, could have been spent on animals care, now its been wasted it can not, simple maths

Do you think the people who committed the crime carry any responsibility?
Indeed I do Ben, as did the judge;
Barnfield, of Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, was fined £250 for each charge, totalling £1,000, and ordered to pay costs of £2,000. Sumner, of Salperton, Gloucestershire, was fined a total of £1,800 with costs of £2,500. The Heythrop Hunt Limited was fined a total of £4000 with £15,000 costs. All three were ordered to pay a £15 victim surcharge.
Quote by Trevaunance
Home for life campaign: Where has the RSPCA said it would guarantee every pet would be rehomed under this scheme? If an animal has behavioral problems, is a dangerous breed or is too sick to be rehomed then perhaps the RSPCA is doing the right thing.
Of course they are swamped with strays, that isn't the RSPCA's fault, but at least they are prepared to do something about it. Your deeply concerned with animal welfare, so do you think its right that domesticated animals are left to turn feral? Every charity is constantly short of money, they all want more donations and if they have to pull on your heart strings to do it then they will. Telling people that they are struggling to cope is nothing more than an advertising campaign.
But to answer your question again:
Would love to know just how many animals will be put to sleep due to this disgusting and massive waste of charity money?

I do not believe that any animal will be put down as a direct consequence of this court action.
At a time they are making redundancy's I believe you are incorrect :thumbup:
I do my share and others on the animal wefare front, just no longer with the RSPCA
, could have been spent on animals care, now its been wasted it can not, simple maths
Quote by Trevaunance
Would love to know just how many animals will be put to sleep due to this disgusting and massive waste of charity money?

I reckon the answer will be nil.
I reckon your wrong, money spent here can not be spent on animals
Healthy cats may have to be put down, because of the record number of strays, the RSPCA warned yesterday

An RSPCA ad campaign that offered to care for pets if their owner dies has escaped a ban, despite the charity admitting that almost one in five animals in the scheme are put down.

Just a few days ago Beverly Cuddy, the editor of Dogs Today magazine, said on BBC radio that the RSPCA couldn’t uphold the Animal Welfare Act with regard puppy farming because, “they say they haven’t got enough money to apply it.” So the misery that thousands of dogs suffer while being bred in disgusting conditions and sold in a backstreet manner is secondary to prosecuting a hunt for breaches of the flawed Hunting Act.
The fact is the RSPCA, at a time when it is publicly pleading poverty and making staff redundant, was willing to risk a truly enormous sum of money…and for what?
Animals will suffer because of it, what would 3rd of a million done for those animals
An RSPCA ad campaign that offered to care for pets if their owner dies has escaped a ban, despite the charity admitting that almost one in five animals in the scheme are put down.
The RSPCA ran a TV and newspaper campaign for its free Home for Life service – featuring clip of a cat pawing at a window of an empty house and the story of a poodle called Pepe – which rehomes pets in the event an owner dies.
"When you pass away, you'll want to know that your pet is safe and happy," read one press ad. "We can help take care of your pet after you've gone. You'll rest in peace, knowing they're being looked after."
The Advertising Standards Authority received a complaint from a member of the public and Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming.
They argued that the RSPCA's advertising was misleading for not mentioning that it puts down some animals in its care.
The RSPCA admitted that in 2011 it had put down 10 of the 58, or 17.2%, of the animals taken in as part of its Home for Life service.


Would love to know just how many animals will be put to sleep due to this disgusting and massive waste of charity money?
Quote by Ben_Minx
We don't know the rationale behind the costs award either.

The feeling I get is the judge was not impressed with the RSPCA and there waste of money, but who knows
District Judge Tim Pattinson, who presided over the Heythrop case, noted witheringly that the £330,000 spent on the case by the RSPCA was ‘a quite staggering sum’. He said that he imagined ‘members of the public may feel that RSPCA funds can be more usefully employed’.
That £330,000 can be set against the costs of just £19,500 paid by the defendants.

Read more:
Referring to the RSPCA costs for mounting the prosecution, he said: ‘It is not for me to express an opinion, I merely flag it up, but I do find it to be a quite staggering figure.’ He said the costs for all five defendants were only £35,000.
He fined 68-year-old Sumner £1,800 and Barnfield £1,000 for the offences which occurred on November 23 and November 30, 2011, and February 29 and March 7 this year.
The hunt was told to pay £15,000 towards the RSPCA’s costs, Sumner £2,500 and Barnfield £2,000.
Outside court, Barnfield said: ‘We conceded because the money wasn’t there to defend ourselves.

Read more:
Quote by Ben_Minx
Bear with me on this.
Do we know why the charges were dropped?
Do we know why the judge didn't award all of the costs?
Do we know why the hounds weren't confiscated.
I don't think we do.

The judge can only award costs for the cases won, which he has done
Quote by Ben_Minx
I dont know, he could have made it all up eh?
Hence my wish for transcripts. They would also answer my other questions. Justice being seen to be done is important I think.

From what I can tell they dropped 52 charges, won four, and the judge awared fines and cost's as follows;
Richard Sumner, 68, and Julian Barnfield, 49, of the 176-year-old Heythrop Hunt with which Cameron has previously ridden, each pleaded guilty at Oxford magistrates court to four charges of unlawfully hunting a wild fox with dogs. The hunt, Heythrop Hunt Limited, also pleaded guilty to the same four charges of intentionally hunting a fox with dogs on land in the Cotswolds.
Barnfield, of Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, was fined £250 for each charge, totalling £1,000, and ordered to pay costs of £2,000. Sumner, of Salperton, Gloucestershire, was fined a total of £1,800 with costs of £2,500. The Heythrop Hunt Limited was fined a total of £4000 with £15,000 costs. All three were ordered to pay a £15 victim surcharge.


All reports I have read state similar, I have no reason to believe otherwise, unless you know better
Quote by Ben_Minx
Yes I had read hat article, authored by th pro hunt Countryside Alliance chappy I believe.
As I said I do wish they published court transcripts.

Please feel free to point out any inaccuracies
Some info here;
On Monday in Oxford Magistrates' Court two men pleaded guilty to four charges, each under a minor piece of legislation which carries a maximum penalty of £5,000. Their company – one was an employee, the other a director – pleaded guilty to four identical offences. The judge fined one of the men £250 for each offence and the other £450. The company was handed four £1,000 fines.
You might think that is the end of a not-very-interesting story but you would be wrong, because the offence the two pleaded guilty to was breach of the Hunting Act and the company was the Heythrop Hunt Ltd.
If a prosecution involving a hunt was not enough to get media juices flowing, the Heythrop Hunt happens to be the only one based in David Cameron's constituency – and the Prime Minister is known to have hunted with the Heythrop hounds..
Such a coincidence was bound to put the story on the front pages but the fact that it was David Cameron's local hunt was no coincidence. The two men, Julian Barnfield and Richard Sumner, and the Heythrop Hunt were not investigated by the police and prosecuted by the CPS, but targeted by the RSPCA. Of the 175 packs of foxhounds in the UK, the RSPCA chose to bring only one private prosecution – against the Heythrop. Nor was this the first attempt to prosecute the Heythrop and huntsman Julian. In 2008 the CPS brought four charges against him based on allegations by animal rights activists, but that prosecution failed. Last year the RSPCA summonsed Julian on another two charges, but again the prosecution failed.
So this year the charity returned with a prosecution unprecedented since the Hunting Act came into force in 2005. It brought no fewer than 52 charges against the hunt, its masters and employees, detailing ten allegations of illegal hunting.
The trial was due to start last week and would have lasted until the end of February. The cost of defending the case would have been well into six figures and then there were the RSPCA's costs to consider. There was clearly a big legal team at work and it did not look cheap. The RSPCA did not use its in-house solicitors, but hired top-end city firm Fishburns, which was clearly ready to spend whatever it took to get a conviction.
Julian and Richard took a pragmatic decision that defending such a big case was practically and financially almost impossible. They accepted that on four occasions they had allowed hounds to chase foxes that had jumped up while they were hunting artificial trails. The RSPCA dropped all other charges against them and against two others who had originally been prosecuted.
District Judge Tim Pattinson noted that in 500 hours' hunting last season the four allegations totalled just 15 minutes of criminality. He then handed down the fines, at the low end of the scale, and came on to the sticky issue of costs.
The RSPCA had been extremely reluctant to divulge how much it had spent on the case and when the judge calculated the total it was clear why – it had spent £326, on solicitors, barristers and associated costs. The judge called the figure "staggering", asking whether "the public may feel RSPCA funds could be more usefully employed". While Judge Pattinson was only commenting on this case, his question has wider implications. Increasingly, the RSPCA is becoming not simply an organisation focused on protecting animal welfare, but a political campaigning group promoting an animal rights agenda. New chief executive Gavin Grant has already ruffled feathers with his threat to "name and shame" people involved in the badger cull trials and by calling for boycotts against farmers in cull areas. Judge Pattinson's question can equally be applied here: is such a campaign the best use of RSPCA funds? Indeed, is it in the best interests of animal welfare?
There is something monstrously hypocritical about such profligacy and waste when the RSPCA is placing fundraising advertisements , claiming that "animal cruelty, neglect and suffering are reaching unprecedented levels in modern times". Paying a handful of lawyers more than £300,000 for a few weeks' work which had no impact on animal welfare, months after announcing 130 redundancies to address deficits on its £115 million annual turnover, suggests an organisation that has lost its way.
RSPCA membership has plummeted to just 29,000 and, while it will not disappear overnight, unless it refocuses on real animal welfare issues rather than a political animal rights agenda it will progressively lose the support of the moderate majority.

Quote by Ben_Minx
I think you have been misinformed blue.
I think the RSPCA chose to drop some of the charges when the main ones were admitted to.
I think the magistrate awarded as much as the hunt could afford.
I still wonder why the hounds weren't confisctaed.
I do wish court records were published.

Then please put me right then
Quote by flower411
Why didn,t the guilty have to pay 325k?
Why weren't the hounds confiscated?
Was either matter mentioned in the summing up?

My understanding is that "costs" awarded against someone are the legal and court costs incurred. As far as I can tell, the £300 000 was the cost of the surveillance etc carried out to bring the prosecution.
Dunno about the dogs dunno
No they are legal cost's, as explained up there :laughabove:
"The reason behind the cost (3rd of one million pounds) for the RSPCA case is they originally brought a total of 52 charges, but most were dropped, resulting in the costs for these having to be met by the charity its self".
Just a few days ago Beverly Cuddy, the editor of Dogs Today magazine, said on BBC radio that the RSPCA couldn't uphold the Animal Welfare Act with regard puppy farming because, "they say they haven't got enough money to apply it."
Yet they can waste over £300,000 to bring 52 weak, and unprosecutable charges!!
Quote by Ben_Minx
I got the impression "scrap heap" was a monetary measure.
If it isn't what is the measure?

dont know, never been there, as stated
Quote by Ben_Minx
Are we measuring success in money again?
There are 7 people who call me dad.
Their academic abilities range from Oxford Graduate to one grade D GCSE in IT. Their choices have ranged from the best performing state schools, to the worst and include private specialist schools.
They are all reasonably happy living the lives they have chosen from the opportunities available to them.
I think that's the most important thing tbh.
Thankfully none of them look down their noses at others who have different opportunities or make different choices.

No definitely not, looks like the only person judging other here is you dunno
Quote by deancannock
I believe they were right to spend the money.
It is not right that the RSPCA should have to bear the costs of these trials, if someone breaks into my house the law will take that person (if known) to court, the RSPCA should only have to give thier evidence to the CPA who should then take the culprit to trial. color]

Quote by Ben_Minx
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I have to take issue with the above quotes, of coarse the guilty party must pay the cost's as is totally correct and proper.
The reason behind the cost (3rd of one million pounds) for the RSPCA case is they originally brought a total of 52 charges, but most were dropped, resulting in the costs for these having to be met by the charity its self.
The fines together amounted to £6,815, with prosecution costs of £19,500 to be paid by the defendants, as is right and proper
Probably why the CPS did not want to touch it, if they even got the chance.
Therefore in my view they were gung-ho in this case and wasted charity money, getting the law wrong and miss-reading the law has cost a lot of pets there lives
Quote by neilinleeds
Its all about choices to some extent, toohot decided to apply himself to pass an exam that gave him a better chance in life, other decided not to....

No, this is nonsense Blue, not all others were able to pass it whether they applied themselves or not. The whole point of it was to select those most academically gifted and steer a tiny fraction of the most able ( < 5% I think ) into a completely different educational experience to that offered those who failed, with much greater opportunities for further academic study later in life. Some would have failed no matter how they applied themselves or how much extra tuition they had because they were simply not gifted enough, that was the whole bloody point! The education offered in what were secondary moderns and later comprehensives was vastly different as anyone who's been through them will tell you.
I don't agree, those that could not pass this exam do not have to end up on the scrap heap, they could go on to excel in some field they can turn there hand too, if they so desired and wanted to.
I left school with not one exam result behind me, ok, I am not rich. but have not ended on the scrap heap either, and the important frame of mind, barring illness, nor shall I ever end up there!
I have some sympathies with both sides of this storey and can see both points of view. However, I feel toohot makes some valid and accurate points. We must all know those from under privileged areas who have achieved and those from very privileged backgrounds who have thrown there lives away.
Its all about choices to some extent, toohot decided to apply himself to pass an exam that gave him a better chance in life, other decided not to....
My only problem, which I have no idea how to solve is this; If state aid is made more difficult for these who are labeled the scroungers, and these people happen to be parents, how does this effect there children, could we be punishing children for there parents choices?
Quote by starlightcouple

Well I can vote with my pocket, I no longer give them any money, makes me feel better wink

You give the RSPCA money Blue? The ROYAL SOCIETY FOR THE PROTECTION OF ANIMALS?, and yet you agree with the hunting of foxes? Is that just not a tad flipping hypocritical?? :doh:
If ever that was an own goal, that was it. Can you not see the irony there?
Yes over the years I have given money the the RSPCA, in fact about 15 to 20 years ago I had a monthly DD/standing order to them.
You see at one time I thought they did a lot of good work, which of coarse at one time they did. As it happens as years go by, one learns otherwise, at times it would seam there motivation is not always animal welfare.
Where as my motivation is always animal welfare, any thing that I am involved with that may have any connection with animals, my first priority is the animals welfare, which must always take first place.
I source all my meat for the table to ensure it has had the best life, high welfare and as best life as possible for an animal bread for eating, whether that be through the butcher or game dealer.
As for that being hypocritical, I do not believe so. I am trying to avoid the hunting debate. As you know, and have already mentioned, has been done to death here. But suffice to say, I firmly believe fox control to be a necessary requirement, I also believe, on an animal welfare basis that hunting with hounds is the best method to do this.
The hunting act has done nothing for animal welfare, and has not saved a sigle fox, just left them at the mercy of many forms of creul death, and removed the only none wounding selective one.

And not a single fox saved dunno