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Bluefish2009
Over 90 days ago
Straight Male, 60
Straight Female, 50
UK

Forum

Quote by Lizaleanrob
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I think your correct, I dont belive the RSPCA did share there evedance with the police or CPS.
When RSPCA loses a case, costs are frequently paid from state funds, What I would like to see this practice stopped and like most people, they pay there own cost's. This may make them less gung-ho in the future
They were not gung - ho in this case....they were 100% correct and successful. Blue maybe its the hunt you should be condeming for blatantly flaunting the law for their own amuzement !!
you are indeed correct dean more tally ho in this case bolt
:laughabove:
Very good Rob lol
Quote by HnS
If people who have been giving donations to the RSPCA currently wish to differ with them over this expenditure, then they can do so and potentiall change their leadership and policies.
Anyone else it's just comment and discussion, as we do on the fourms, pubs, etc. around any other organisation from the RNLI to CLA.

Well I can vote with my pocket, I no longer give them any money, makes me feel better wink
Quote by Stevie_and_Kitty
Roadkill mutton is tasty. Takes a while to run one over mind.

Not in a land rover they don't...and space in the back to chuck in a few
I suppose that is one way to tenderise old meat wink
Quote by neilinleeds
Is it? Only been running six months but quick Google of basics card not working is revealing. It would appear too soon to say whether it works or not Blue?


Don't seem to be rolling it out so well. Given the appalling record of Govt IT projects likely to be required for this I reckon we'll do even worse than the Aussies.

Cant disagree with that wink
Quote by neilinleeds
The deer are presumably eaten as food once shot, the shooting is simply the slaughtering process used in this method of farming deer. .

If when the cull starts, this could be the answer then wink

Looks tasty lol
From what I can tell it will not effect every one
Plans being drawn up by Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith will see the 120,000 problem families targeted with Oyster-style cards which can only be used in certain shops.
Quote by Trevaunance
Here's an interesting one.
A Tory MP has proposed that benefits(1) be paid onto cash cards that can then be used to purchase goods in shops, like any other credit or debit card.
However the catch is that the card would not be able to be used for 'luxuries' which are defined as cigarettes, alcohol and sky TV. No doubt there are other 'luxuries' but these are the three reported ones.

(1) Certain benefits would not be included such as disability payments and pensions.

On the face of it, sounds good to me
Quote by HnS
A simple look at the RSPCA website at the top of the page -
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals - the UK's largest animal welfare charity. We rescue, rehabilitate and rehome hundreds of thousands of animals each year in England and Wales. We offer advice on caring for all animals and campaign to change laws that will protect them, which we will enforce through prosecution.
So any one donating to the RSPCA should clearly know from the start that their donation can be used to fund any of those aims.
In this particular case RSPCA Chief Executive, Gavin Grant, said: We are being true to our 188 year history of fighting for justice for animals.
Whether they should of funded a private prosecution shouldn't come as any surprise, it's been doing that for much of it's history. Today it was Heythrop Hunt whereas in times past it's been the shocking conduct of the Smithfield meat market, to punish cat skinners, men who used dogs as draft animals, and to alleviate the misery of horses.
The fact that some one was breaking the Law, however it may be classified as an offence it's still the Law, whilst the CPS has proven pretty in-effective since the Hunting Act was introduced, so they took the position open to anyone or organisation and undertook a private prosecution.
A simple case of standing by your stated beliefs and convictions as well as being wholly in line with what they've been doing for generations, namely we will enforce through prosecution. Just that in this case it got more publicity than the many other less high profile convictions it secures, or attempts to privately prosecute every year.
Hats off to them

I guess we see things in a different light, I feel that a 3rd of a million on a prosecution, and no hope of recouping this money or any chance of real punishment for the perpetrators was outrageous.
I wonder how many dog/cats could have been saved/treated with that money. Not a single fox has been saved
Quote by deancannock
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I think your correct, I dont belive the RSPCA did share there evedance with the police or CPS.
When RSPCA loses a case, costs are frequently paid from state funds, What I would like to see this practice stopped and like most people, they pay there own cost's. This may make them less gung-ho in the future
They were not gung - ho in this case....they were 100% correct and successful. Blue maybe its the hunt you should be condeming for blatantly flaunting the law for their own amuzement !!
Often they are gung-ho and loose cases because they either misinterpret the law or just get the facts wrong, and more often or not, we end up paying for there mistake
I condemn any and all lawlessness
For me, this was more about a charity miss-using it funds, in my view
Quote by deancannock
what I find totally wrong is that these hunts still go out actively hunting foxes, when they know its against the law. So long as the law gives out such small fines, they will continue, as its just pin money to most of them convicted. They should be made to pay the cost of the court, and the RSPCA's costs.....maybe then they might think twice !!!

I guess that is one of those things, many people break the speed limit and they know full well they are breaking the law, but they continue to do so, with the risk of taking human life because of there selfish actions.
However, I am sure most hunts will be hunting within the law
Quote by Ben_Minx
I think this public interest malarky is a red herring. I dont think the case was ever reviewed by the CPS. Furthermore the cost of the prosecution do not appear to feature in the CPS criteria for public interest.
I like the idea of recovering as much of the costs as possible from criminals.

I think your correct, I dont belive the RSPCA did share there evedance with the police or CPS.
When RSPCA loses a case, costs are frequently paid from state funds, What I would like to see this practice stopped and like most people, they pay there own cost's. This may make them less gung-ho in the future
Quote by Ben_Minx
I think the vaccination runs for life but one has to do the new badgers as they pop up.

To my knolage there is only one vaccine currently available; BCG (Mycobacterium bovis Bacille Calmette-Guérin)
According to Defra
Badgers will have to be vaccinated on an annual bases for two reasons, one in order to ensure that you vaccinate as many new cubs as possible when they emerge in late spring each year, and each year there is an approximate 30% rate of population turnover including new the cubs and badger movement. Also as I understand it, there is no suitable way to permanently mark a badger without having to anaesthetise it first, which would greatly increase the disturbance to the badgers and the costs of a vaccination programme. however research has shown that there will be no detrimental effects if a badger is vaccinated on more than one occasion.
Hope that helps
Quote by Ben_Minx
How jolly and festive.

I wish them the best of luck with raising money for a vaccine, but feel with the current vaccine needing to be administered annually the cost will be prohibitive
Quote by starlightcouple
Does anyone know how much the league against cruel sports contributes to the RSPCA?

I suspected nothing GnV, but as I was unsure I telephoned them. The answer is nowt, nothing as they are a completely different entity to the RSPCA.
Now your next question may be what mine was whilst I was on the phone. I also asked why the league against cruel sports was not involved with the recent case or has not prosecuted anyone for fox hunting. Their answer was that they do not have the financial resources that the RSPCA have.
But if anyone is interested in this fantastic charity , and may want to make a very worthwhile donation this is their website.

Yes two separate entities, in fact one was once a great institution, one of the founders of the RSPA was Colonel Richard Martin, a noted fox-hunter and MP, whose Martin's Act of 1822 against the cruel treatment of cattle was the first animal welfare Bill passed in Britain, if not the world.
Where has LACS has done little for animal welfare and is confused by animal rights wink
Quote by Trevaunance
Given the huge amount of money spent by the RSPCA on bringing a successful prosecution I would speculate that the CPS decided not to spend a similar amount for very little return. Let me expand a little on that; I think the CPS decided it was not an effective use of public funds and, lets be honest, if they had spent that sort of money they would be lambasted for doing so. Being cost effective is within the public interest and I wonder whether, rightly or wrongly this was a deciding factor.
One thing is sure, precedence is set and I think the CPS will be influenced by this judgement if a similar case is laid before it; Maybe that is an endorsement of the RSPCA's action in itself.

I believe your first point to be correct, but some how dought the result will influence the CPS in any way
Quote by neilinleeds
Blue, is it morally right? It would seem to fit perfectly with the organisations stated aim of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals? It is their function, no? The case goes beyond punishing those at fault in this case. The prosecution serves notice on other hunts that they cannot get away with this with impunity forever. Even if the police and CPS are somewhat lax when it comes to enforcement of the legislation the RSPCA at least will be there to ensure their actions are lawful. That goes some way towards the prevention of cruelty to animals in the future, yes? Again, entirely within their remit.

Off coarse the RSPCA are well within there rights to bring a private prosecution, not at question at all. my problem lies with the 3rd of a million of funds it cost them for what is only a minor offence in the eyes of the law.
As for the the RSPCA taking up the slack on behalf the CPS and police, they simply could not afford many of these trials, that is why, in my view they chose this particular hunt.
That's why I see this as immoral, this was charitable money spent on a political campaign, nothing or Little to do with animal welfare
Quote by starlightcouple

The law is still on the statute book so the Judge had no option. But I think he made his feelings known by the penalty imposed :grin:

Do you know that for a fact GnV?
Do you know what fine he could have imposed? Could it have been the maximum he could have issued under directives laid out in law?
So if they break the law again the fines and punishment will be the same? I hope not. But this hopefully will be a lesson for these people in the future eh? The two guilty parties have ' retired ' from their posts, but I hope that does not mean they can still ride with a future hunt and be exempt from further law breaking as another huntsman will take the flak? IF any one of these people are caught riding in a hunt again, they should be sent to prison.
The Hunting Act has the same status as a minor road traffic violation.
For me' at a time when the RSPCA are pleading poverty, this sum of money wasted is a disgrace
RSPCA expects to cut more than 130 jobs, mostly in administration and support roles, citing its increasing staff pension fund deficit as a key reason.
In a statement released last week, the animal welfare charity said the charity was under pressure from rising fuel costs and veterinary bills; a drop in donations and an increase in call-centre workload. In 2007, the charity took 21,481 calls about abandoned animals. In 2011, the total had leapt to 28,162, a 31 per cent rise over five years.
RPSCA had already budgeted to spend almost £10m less in 2011 than in 2009. But it cited the impact of inflation, and a growing staff pension fund deficit caused by flat investment returns for its new decision on staff levels.
According to the charity’s most recent accounts, in 2010 its overall pension deficit increased by £4m to In the same year, its wage bill was It had an income of , and spent
The charity is undergoing a staffing review. This is likely to mean restructuring and a reduction of more than 130 posts, particularly in administration and support roles although staff at all levels could be affected. However, the 1,000 or so frontline staff including RSPCA inspectors, animal welfare officers and animal collection officers, as well as workers at hospitals, wildlife and animal rehoming centres, will be protected.
Chief executive Gavin Grant said: “The RSPCA is under pressure like never before. Ever-larger numbers of animals are falling victim to abuse and abandonment in part due to the economic climate.

Quote by flower411
Blimey !!! Here we go !! lol
If the RSPCA do not think that the law is being enforced I don`t see anything "immoral" about them spending the money as it is their aim to stop cruelty to animals.
The fact that the law is wrong is beside the point here. :lol:

Yes I wish to leave the poor and incorrectness of this law to one side if I can flower. wink
The thing for me about charitable giving is that every fiver may be from someone who can ill afford it, but passionately wants it spent on animal welfare. I feel that a 3rd of a million pounds spent on this issue is badly spent money
I used to give to the RSPCA, but stopped when there monies were spent on animal rights rather than animal welfare issues
David Cameron's hunt convicted as judge questions RSPCA's £330,000 prosecution costs
Is it moraly correct for the RSPCA to spend nearly £300,000 of donated, charitable money on a prosecution?
Barnfield, of Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire, was fined £250 for each charge, totalling £1,000, and ordered to pay costs of £2,000. Sumner, of Salperton, Gloucestershire, was fined a total of £1,800 with costs of £2,500. The Heythrop Hunt Limited was fined a total of £4000 with £15,000 costs. All three were ordered to pay a £15 victim surcharge.

I believe what the RSPCA have done to be immoral, my thinking falls more in line with what the judge had to say
A judge has questioned the “quite staggering” amount of money the RSPCA spent pursuing the prosecution of a hunt, saying that the money may have been more “usefully employed”.
The District Judge Tim Pattinson made the comments after the charity’s successful prosecution of the Prime Minister’s local hunt.
He fined the Heythrop hunt and its members £6,800, but then rounded on the RSPCA for laying out £330,000 to bring the case – 10 times the defence costs.
“Members of the public may feel that RSPCA funds can be more usefully employed,” he told Oxford Magistrates' Court.
“It is not for me to express an opinion but I merely flag it up but I do find it to be a quite staggering figure.”

Quote by GnV
When did people give a feck about morals?

Everything that is wrong in the world today in a nutshell Star. I may not have lived up to my own high standards at times Star, no. Having high standards does sometimes make them difficult to achieve I guess. Difference is, I do at least have standards, and aspire to them.
And this is the point being missed the most here !
Having morals, aspiring to them and maybe not quite making the grade is totally different to going out of your way to be immoral !
Interesting viewpoint about immorality from a member of a swinging site who enjoys unbridled sex with strangers....
Exactly right yet again, morals are not set in stone, they are fluid. What one person feels is immoral, another person may not. What I feel is immoral today, I may not tomorrow. Who is to judge which set of morals are correct?
Quote by GnV
I think this is where the confusion arises.
Tax avoidance isn't necessarily legitimate.
See HMRC website for details.

Nor is it necessarily illegitimate.
Quite right Gnv
We all know HMRC don't like it, of coarse they don't, they feel they are loosing money,but they don't make the tax laws
Those who can lessen there bill through loopholes will, and rightly should
I think Gnv analogy of those who shop for a bargain is a good one, those who shop for a bargain are also robbing the government of VAT, and should be ashamed of them selves, denying school's, hospital's and such like of vital funds wink
Well having read all post's here my views have not changed
If what they are doing is not illegal, and it appears to be tax avoidance rather than tax evasion, then they are not doing anything wrong, it is the government's fault if firms are able to employ strategies to minimise their taxes, the politicians need to sort out the loopholes.
In my view the Government should put up, or shut up, in other words, if the law has been broken then prosecute, if it has not shut up the whining wink
Quote by neilinleeds
Good for Google that they can get away with it. The ones moaning about it would do exactly the same given the chance, which they will not so resort to boycotting them? That is really going to hurt them.rolleyes
To think that boycotting them makes an ounce of sense is a strange stance to take, but hey if it makes people feel better then good on them, but those people if they could get away with not paying their taxes, they would not give a hoot if they could.
I will not be boycotting any of them to be honest, instead of doing that why not boycott your local bank as it is them that have between them, put this country straight down the toilet, not the likes of Starbucks who in comparison has avoided peanuts in comparison to the greedy banks.

Spot on star, to my knowledge they have not even broken any laws
Of course, but then legal / illegal doesn't always directly equate to moral / morally wrong does it, and clearly the kind of tax avoidance we're seeing with these companies who take advantage of tax-payer funded infrastructure and services we've helped put in place that enables them to do business in this country in the first place while making next to no contribution back syphoning funds out of the country is morally wrong on every level. People talk about dole scum sponging off tax-payers but companies like this take sponging to whole new levels of obscenity.
If people are able to sponge of the state, as you suggest, that fault lies with the laws/rules that allow them to do so, The government.
Just the same with big business, and tax avoidance, change the rule/laws that allow such things
I do not see the blame falling at the feet of those who use current laws/rules to there advantage
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
There is a simple solution to all this tax avoidance ....
1: Do an internet search (not google obviously) find the office of your chosen company
2: Travel to said office
3: Take bottle
3: Fill bottle with petrol
4: stuff rag into neck of bottle
5: Light rag
6: throw into reception
7: repeat steps 1 to 6 until desired effect is achieved
These steps are most effective when acompanied by a large angry mob

dunno
Is this from the Aurther Scargill book of poems
Quote by starlightcouple
Good for Google that they can get away with it. The ones moaning about it would do exactly the same given the chance, which they will not so resort to boycotting them? That is really going to hurt them.rolleyes
To think that boycotting them makes an ounce of sense is a strange stance to take, but hey if it makes people feel better then good on them, but those people if they could get away with not paying their taxes, they would not give a hoot if they could.
I will not be boycotting any of them to be honest, instead of doing that why not boycott your local bank as it is them that have between them, put this country straight down the toilet, not the likes of Starbucks who in comparison has avoided peanuts in comparison to the greedy banks.

Spot on star, to my knowledge they have not even broken any laws
Neil, you are correct, that was more my view, at this stage the proposed culls are trials, experimental, and not something rolled out across the country in all bovine TB affected areas. We will have to see what effect this has.
Living, well more visiting these days, in the countryside, I hear much about these things, peoples views, many of these people words carry much weight with me. The words of a well respected farmer below;
As one who has spent the last 80 years living & farming in the country, I have seen it all happen. The successful efforts of the Ministry of Agriculture & farmers to eradicate bovine TB (see the table I posted above) & then the disastrous upsurge to an uncontrolled badger population leading to a tragic negation of years of work & the reappearance of the Bovine TB problem, the decimation of much of our other wildlife & a ridiculous over population of badgers limited only by disease & starvation .
These words carry great weight with me, and can be heard over and over by those with experience of such things. Had we continued the gassing protocols originally used, none of this would be necessary at all, and we might now be merely discussing contraceptive vaccines to limit badger populations.
I suspect what will happen in time is the licenced, Wholesale gassing of setts across a very large area of countryside over a period of years, with a view to locally extincting the main reservoir host of bovine TB. There will then need to be follow-up monitoring done to identify and destroy any remaining hot-spots. Then we can look at contraceptive vaccines to limit badger populations.
You may disagree, but I suspect this is what will be required and what will happen
Quote by Ben_Minx
I think the difference is that Deer culling is proven to be necessary whereas the slaughter of badgers to prevent bovine TB is not. In so far as these things can be "proven" of course.

Most of what I have seen and read indicate otherwise. Put aside prevention, infected animals should be delt with on animal welfare basis