Join the most popular community of UK swingers now
Login
Max777
Over 90 days ago
Straight Male, 71
0 miles · Tyne and Wear

Forum

Quote by samson63
The valuation was primarily done by Goldman Sachs (and UBS), who then made a huge profit when, surprise, surprise it turned out to be undervalued and the stock rose in value. Talk about putting the fox in charge of the chickens.

How did these banks make a huge profit from the stock rising in value?
From the increase in value and commission received when their "clients" (Goldman Sachs International) sold the stock.
Are you implying that Goldman Sachs bought stock in their own right? If so, at what value? would you also care to quantify the 'huge profit' made from the commission on the sale of stock?
Goldman Sachs International, a branch of the bank, had snapped up more than 21 million shares by October 31. On November 11, it had less than 17 million.
It means Goldman traders could have sold at least 4 million shares during a period when they peaked at 587p, at which point they were worth £27million
If they had bought at the issue price and sold at the peak, the deals could have made nearly £12million profit. Goldman Sachs were allowed to profit from their own advice. It has to be a conflict of interest and unethical.
Goldman Sachs claim that any shares subsequently bought were bought on behalf of clients. If you can prove otherwise I'd be interested in seeing your proof. Also, they could only have bought shares at issue price if any of the small investors sold at issue price, which is very unlikely, as they did not receive an allocation at flotation. Any profits realised would have been much smaller than the figures you put forward.
If the profits GS made were derived from commissions on purchases and sales of shares acquired and sold on behalf of clients, I fail to see how this is either a conflict of interest or unethical. They would have been doing nothing different to that which other investment banks were doing.
Quote by samson63
The valuation was primarily done by Goldman Sachs (and UBS), who then made a huge profit when, surprise, surprise it turned out to be undervalued and the stock rose in value. Talk about putting the fox in charge of the chickens.

How did these banks make a huge profit from the stock rising in value?
From the increase in value and commission received when their "clients" (Goldman Sachs International) sold the stock.
Are you implying that Goldman Sachs bought stock in their own right? If so, at what value? would you also care to quantify the 'huge profit' made from the commission on the sale of stock?
Quote by Toots
yet again by way of undervaluing it. Vince Cables rubbish excuse for selling it on the cheap was lamentable.

Not contained in the above report but relevant is those 17 'key investors' who made a quick buck or rather a real quick buck' I wonder how many of those 17 are in the pockets of the Govt or vice versa
"… Seventeen key investors were sought for their comments up to a year ahead of the initial public offering
"These key investors who caused the deal to be struck too cheaply, then were rewarded by better allocations than other investors (which essentially means a larger cheque) but sold half their stock within weeks! It couldn't get worse. Mr Cable you were had."
Vince Cable as a business secretary should be sacked, his incompetence re the sale of the Royal Mail is about as bad as it gets and as for his comment that the Govt turned down a loss making company into a profit making publicly owned one is also rubbish, the business was on it's last legs (probably brought about by under investment by the Govt and them wanting to sell it/make some money from it's sale) but shortly before the share option was announced it became profitable part due to the influence of the then recently appointed Chief Exec Moya Greene who just happens to be Canadian the same as the current Governor of the Bank of England
and who himself was appointed by that good old mess of a human being George Osborne and who most likely influenced the decision by the the Govt owned Royal Mail to appoint Moya Greene as it's head.
Never more has the phrase ' Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely ' seemed so apparent as it does with this current Govt.
I wonder how many front line services could have been saved or received more funding had the Royal Mail been sold in a competent more diligent manner.
Vince Cable - Fail!

The key investors (or priority investors ) were mostly pension funds. Nothing sinister about that, hopefully your pension fund was included.
Quote by Fobs
Nobody bleated about the value being too low back in October last year when the IPO price was released (300-330p), in fact the people who are now stirring it were saying that at 330p it was going to be a disaster and nobody would pay that for the RM.
The RM staff have benefited from the sale with 10% of the shares 'free' with 613 shares in this tax year and a further 112 in the 14/15 tax year and if they keep them for 5 years they're free of any income tax or NIC.
Those with private or company pensions have gained as the initial 'issue guarantors' have sold their allocations, reducing their risk and exposure and increasing the net worth of the pension funds.
The Government retain a 30% shareholding currently worth 231p a share more than they were a 6 months ago.
Got rid of 100% tax payer liability for £100m+ investment in the RM a year.
Moya Green is the lowest paid CEO of any FTSE 100 company. When appointed by the RM Chairman Don Brydon, Vince Cable insisted that she return a £250,000 'relocation payment' offered by the RM Chairman (which she did).

I agree Fobs. We can all be right with the benefit of hindsight. Samson63 claims that Goldman Sachs and UBS benefited from the shares increasing in value. I'm not aware that they were allocated any shares in the flotation( ( Barclays and Merrill Lynch were also involved in the IPO) Lazards were the main advisors to the Government and they advised that the sale price should be in the range of 212-262p.
As you rightly say, the major beneficiaries todate have been pension funds.
It's rich Labour complaining about the sale being undervalued considering Gordon Brown cost the nation some £4 billion pounds selling half our gold reserves at rock bottom prices.
Quote by samson63
The valuation was primarily done by Goldman Sachs (and UBS), who then made a huge profit when, surprise, surprise it turned out to be undervalued and the stock rose in value. Talk about putting the fox in charge of the chickens.

How did these banks make a huge profit from the stock rising in value?
Quote by MidsCouple24
War was not declared in Northern Ireland, as a result of which there are those seeing to charge members of 2 Para with murder and manslaughter for the killing of unarmed civilians (not proven)on Bloody Sunday, nobody has been charged with those offences when London was bombed during WWII because a state of war existed.
Tell those members of 2 Para there is no difference between war and conflict. Tell those charged with acts of terrorism that there is no difference between war and conflict when they are facing terrorism charges and not war crimes charges which still carry the death penalty.

So are you saying that had war been declared, the paras could not have been charged for murdering unarmed civilians? ( I'm using your words btw)
The Commander of the Luftwaffe was found guilty of war crimes and sentenced to death at the Nurenberg Trials. I suspect the bombings of London and other allied cities played a part in his indictment.
You are still to explain what you perceive to be the difference between a war and a conflict. If you are going to say that there has to be a declaration of war for a conflict to become a war, there were no such formal declarations by the US in either the Korean, Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan Wars.
Quote by MidsCouple24
state·ment (st?t?m?nt) n.
1. The act of stating or declaring.
2. Something stated; a declaration.
3. Law A formal pleading.
4. An abstract of a commercial or financial account showing an amount due; a bill.
5. A monthly report sent to a debtor or bank depositor.
6. Computer Science An elementary instruction in a programming language.
7. An overall impression or mood intended to be communicated.
Yeah I think my statement carries my overall impression that in the future we will be at war in Africa.
you STATED that we will be at war in Africa and for that to happen one of the nations involved needs to declare war on the other nation.

Really? Haven't we been fighting a war in Afghanistan in recent years? Were we at war with Afghanistan? Did we declare War on Afghanistan, or them on us?
No we have not been fighting a war in Iraq or in Afghanistan the same as we did not fight a war in the Falklands campaign which was classed as a Conflict. This makes a big difference.
To be at War we have to declare war otherwise it is labelled as a peacekeeping mission, conflict, emergency, coup d'état, Uprising, Intervention or similar depending on the situation.

What is the big difference?
Try telling the relatives of the soldiers that have been killed and the poor sods that have been maimed that they weren't fighting a war but merely a conflict. I'm sure they will appreciate the difference!
Quote by MidsCouple24
So MIDs, are you saying that all gay saunas are sex clubs and have to be granted permission by virtue of the fact they are a persecuted minority? Whereas swingers clubs (again I don't know why we are comparing these as it should be saunas for the proper comparison) don't have to be granted a licence to trade as they are not a persecuted minority?

No that is not what I said
Actually yeah it is, it is what you aslluded to. Your statement was in all gay saunas men have sex with other men, but in swingers clubs it sometimes happens. What complete and utter tosh.
Just because its a gay sauna doesn't mean people are having sex in there!!!
And I never said it did, what I said was gay saunas are registered as gay saunas but swingers clubs are registered as private members health clubs.
I am sure that sex isn't a part of every private members health clubs but swingers clubs is what I said in relation to the private members health clubs.
I said you could call a gay sauna for sex a gay sauna but the councils do not recognise swingers clubs as swingers clubs, I was not saying that it made any difference, I said that this was the label they group each premises under, you cannot refuse planning permission because it is a gay sauna on the grounds we "don't want that in the area" but you can refuse a swingers club on those grounds, the reason being that the courts made it legal for gay people over a certain age to have sex, but heterosexuals having sex with each other has never been challenged in court as gay right have.

What do you mean that heterosexuals having sex with each other has never been challenged it court? As long as both parties are above the age of consent there is nothing to challenge! Courts did not make gay sex of any age legal either, it was an act of parliament in 1967 that made decriminalised homosexuality.
Did Parliament ever issue a decriminalisation of heterosexual sex ?
Yes, the Sexual Offences Act 1967 decriminalised homosexual acts.
Quote by MidsCouple24
I believe I have answered your question, so please do me the courtesy of doing the same.
all gay saunas in the UK are registered as Gay Saunas.

For the third time can you or can you not substantiate this statement and prove that your not talking rubbish?
Not until you substantiate your claim that we are going to declare war on an African state or that an African state are going to declare war on us.
Meanwhile you could show me what they are registered as lol

Seeing as you are trying to avoid answering Trev, I'll ask the same question. Please substantiate your claim that all gay saunas in the UK are registered as gay saunas.
Quote by MidsCouple24
So MIDs, are you saying that all gay saunas are sex clubs and have to be granted permission by virtue of the fact they are a persecuted minority? Whereas swingers clubs (again I don't know why we are comparing these as it should be saunas for the proper comparison) don't have to be granted a licence to trade as they are not a persecuted minority?

No that is not what I said
Actually yeah it is, it is what you aslluded to. Your statement was in all gay saunas men have sex with other men, but in swingers clubs it sometimes happens. What complete and utter tosh.
Just because its a gay sauna doesn't mean people are having sex in there!!!
And I never said it did, what I said was gay saunas are registered as gay saunas but swingers clubs are registered as private members health clubs.
I am sure that sex isn't a part of every private members health clubs but swingers clubs is what I said in relation to the private members health clubs.
I said you could call a gay sauna for sex a gay sauna but the councils do not recognise swingers clubs as swingers clubs, I was not saying that it made any difference, I said that this was the label they group each premises under, you cannot refuse planning permission because it is a gay sauna on the grounds we "don't want that in the area" but you can refuse a swingers club on those grounds, the reason being that the courts made it legal for gay people over a certain age to have sex, but heterosexuals having sex with each other has never been challenged in court as gay right have.

What do you mean that heterosexuals having sex with each other has never been challenged it court? As long as both parties are above the age of consent there is nothing to challenge! Courts did not make gay sex of any age legal either, it was an act of parliament in 1967 that made decriminalised homosexuality.
Quote by herts_darlings1
Not sure what 90 percent of this bollocks has to do with Ugandan gays! Whilst you all rip lumps out of each other I might right a letter to the Ugandan gay times! Tell them they might as well stay where they are because we are too busy talking shit to give a damn!

Unfortunately the O.P. Has a tendency to go off on all sorts of tangents and post all sorts of superfluous waffle in order to try and argue his corner. Hence all the ensuing shit!
Not necessarily true,I think this is something that a lot of people feel strongly about on both sides of the argument. I will have my view and I am interested to hear the views of others. Not facile tittle tattle about who said what about this and that and when.
You're entitled to your opinion. I've given mine
Quote by herts_darlings1
Not sure what 90 percent of this bollocks has to do with Ugandan gays! Whilst you all rip lumps out of each other I might right a letter to the Ugandan gay times! Tell them they might as well stay where they are because we are too busy talking shit to give a damn!

Unfortunately the O.P. Has a tendency to go off on all sorts of tangents and post all sorts of superfluous waffle in order to try and argue his corner. Hence all the ensuing shit!
Quote by MidsCouple24

Because he owner of the said swingers club also owns 3 of the premier swingers clubs in the UK, he told me and I have no reason to doubt his knowledge or integrity.

:laughabove::laughabove:
you do realise that this statement means that all Kent777's post's regarding fat bloke down the pub told him must now be considered true rotflmao:rotflmao:
of to buy a copy of the factual daily mail now lol
What an unusual friend you appear to be, if a Doctor friend told you the symptoms you describe to him are those of measles you would not believe him, if a painter friend told you it would be better to sand the item and apply an undercoat you would not believe them, I consider my friend to be an expert in his field owning the 3 most successful gay saunas in the UK, I have no qualms in believing what he says over the guy in the pub who has never even been in to a gay sauna.
According to your earlier post, your friend owns 3 of the premier swinging clubs in the UK. No mention of gay saunas. Do you make it up as you go along?
Quote by MidsCouple24

Because he owner of the said swingers club also owns 3 of the premier swingers clubs in the UK, he told me and I have no reason to doubt his knowledge or integrity.

:laughabove::laughabove:
you do realise that this statement means that all Kent777's post's regarding fat bloke down the pub told him must now be considered true rotflmao:rotflmao:
of to buy a copy of the factual daily mail now lol
What an unusual friend you appear to be, if a Doctor friend told you the symptoms you describe to him are those of measles you would not believe him, if a painter friend told you it would be better to sand the item and apply an undercoat you would not believe them, I consider my friend to be an expert in his field owning the 3 most successful gay saunas in the UK, I have no qualms in believing what he says over the guy in the pub who has never even been in to a gay sauna.
According to your earlier post, your friend owns 3 of the premier swinging clubs in the UK. No mention of gay saunas. Do you make it up as you go along?
Quote by MidsCouple24
-Long boring copy and pasted list deleted-
Yes pretty much grouped together as I said

No, what you said is that "councils have a tendency to group businesses in a group format". There is no tendency. The property classifications are laid down in law.
Quote by MidsCouple24
A load of stuff that in his own words is....
All quite irrelevant apart from the big picture of clubs and the Councils stance.

You are once again talking about a swingers club. Where does any of that prove that you are correct that all gay sauna's in the UK are registered with the local authority as gay saunas?
Because he owner of the said swingers club also owns 3 of the premier swingers clubs in the UK, he told me and I have no reason to doubt his knowledge or integrity.
Quote by MidsCouple24
all gay saunas in the UK are registered as Gay Saunas.

Can you or can you not substantiate this statement and prove that your not talking rubbish?
Quote by MidsCouple24
Anyway, phone Chameleons tomorrow and ask them "what sort of club is it" and they will tell you instantly ..... "It is a private members health club for adults of mixed gender"

Strange then that they describe themselves as the 'UK's premier swingers clubs' and nothing to do with being a health club. For the record I can substantiate that fact
I never said anything about how they describe themselves I said how they were registered with the council. nothing strange about that, it is not done for subterfuge the council know exactly what they are but councils have a tendency to group businesses in a kind of mass format such as my Fitted Kitchen and Bedroom showroom as retail premises and the mini market next door as the same despite the complete difference in products.
Mids, councils do not " have a tendency to group businesses in a kind of mass format", try doing a little research into UK Property classifications.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Sorry Mids, but you're talking rubbish again. Please when making comparisons compare apples to apples and not to oranges.
When applying to the council for a gay sauna licence then the appropriate comparison would be to just a sauna, not a swingers club! And of course the council can refuse it on the grounds of being a sauna! whosoever it was for would have no bearing on their decision, but it may have bearing on the publics planning objections, which the council have to take in to account.
Why would I compare a gay sauna where men engage in sex with each other to a sauna where men and women have, errrrrrr a sauna, why would I not compare it to a swingers club where men and women and sometimes women and women and sometimes men and men have sex with each other ?
and then you go on to say that the council would not refuse planning permission because it is a sex club but might refuse planning permission because it is a sex club (albeit because of public objections)

If that's directed at me, I'll repeat what I said earlier. Learn to read properly!
Quote by MidsCouple24
oh here we go again, I stated a fact based on what the OP had himself said with a profile stating he was part of a couple and looking to meet other couples and a post stating that his wife had refused to swing and that he was looking to meet on his own. If it was not fact why has he now changed his profile to that of a single male ?
You on the other hand have decided that what I have said (and the others that agree) is just rubbish because your view is the only relevant and true view, you cannot prove that what I have said is rubbish, it is just your (and any others that agree with you) opinion.

You really should learn to read properly. Where have I said anything you have said is rubbish in this thread? I don't know anything about planning and licensing laws and I suspect neither do you. The difference is you spout off and state facts as if you were an expert on the matter. This is what OTHERS have rubbished.
Quote by MidsCouple24
How can you apologise to me for insulting me ? if your sorry you wouldn't abuse me saying I am talking rubbish, I am stating a opinion and in the UK I am allowed to do that or am I wrong, do I need to seek asylum somewhere for having an opinion ?

No, you were stating supposed facts about planning and licence applications. That is what Rouge was rubbishing.
What a short memory you have, it's only 2 minutes since you're defending your right to call someone a liar and time waster. One law for you and another for everyone else?
Quote by Geordiecpl2001
Let us not forget that it was illegal to perform a sexual act with a member of the same sex not that long ago in the United Kingdom, we learnt that this was wrong a passed laws that actually made it legal at a certain age.
Hetrosexual acts do not have that protection because it has never been challenged in our courts for two consenting adults of the opposite sex to have sexual encounters.
Apply for planning permission for a swingers club in the UK and you could be turned down because the relative Council "do not think that such a premises is wanted in the area".
Apply for planning permission for a gay sauna and the council could not refuse the application on those grounds, they would have to use, residential upset, noise or parking reasons for example because it is a legitimate business recognised in law.
Most Swingers clubs in the UK are registered as Private Members Health Clubs, Naturist Clubs or Health Spa's as these are the only businesses of a similar nature that the Council can grant applications for, all gay saunas in the UK are registered as Gay Saunas.

Sorry Mids, but you're talking rubbish again. Please when making comparisons compare apples to apples and not to oranges.
When applying to the council for a gay sauna licence then the appropriate comparison would be to just a sauna, not a swingers club! And of course the council can refuse it on the grounds of being a sauna! whosoever it was for would have no bearing on their decision, but it may have bearing on the publics planning objections, which the council have to take in to account.
Anyway, back to the topic. The argument is not about whether the laws in Uganda are at fault, the argument is about should we accept persecution as a gay person be a valid reason for asylum in this country.
As far as I am concerned then yes it is. you can not "help" being gay. It is part of your genetic makeup. You can not be cured, You can not suppress it. Therefore it obeys the criteria for asylum, in fact it is a better reason for asylum than for persecution for your religious beliefs!!!
Then do we grant asylum to adulterers (sp?) from Saudi, who certainly do face jail, or worse, for that act? You could argue they are being persecuted for their sexuality. After all, it has been established that some people have a gene that makes them much more prone to serial philandering.
John
In that case, hopefully the 'single' guys cheating on here will be given an easier ride, as obviously they can't help it!
Quote by deancannock
sorry but totally disagree. If some one is being persecuted because of their sexuality, surely other nations, including us must look sympathetically at their plight. Its not as if we going to get a flood of people coming over here. If we got more than 10 or 20 I would be amazed. The African nations, tend to have more towards the French speaking nations, and so think they will get more than us.
You say we as a nation can not tell other nations the rules and laws to adhere to. I am sorry but we can and we do. We have a bill of human rights, and stopping people from having the right to chose their sexuality is something we surely can not condone.
I will gladly stand out and speak out against this, and am proud of Britain for offering shelter against such prosecution.

Whilst I'm in agreement with your principles on this issue, I don't see why you think Ugandans would tend to move to French speaking nations rather than the UK. Uganda only gained independence from the UK in the 1960s so the people will have a lot more in common with the UK rather than France.
Quote by MidsCouple24
First and foremost can I say, I do not believe the law in Uganda that says you can and probably will be jailed for life if proven guilty of being gay is wrong, it is wrong to make being gay in any form illegal.
But a UK minister saying we will look very closely at applications for asylum of people applying to the UK for asylum on the grounds they are gay is also wrong.
We cannot accept breaking the laws of your Nation grounds for granting asylum here, it is not our place to decide which laws Nations have are right or wrong just because they differ from our own.
We can try and get Uganda to change their minds, we can impose sanctions, we can lobby other Nations to join us in our desire to get them to change their minds but we cannot harbour people who break laws no matter how sympathetic we are, it would also open a loop hole whereby any Ugandan wishing to come to the UK simply has to claim to be gay.
One suggestion was to stop aid for aids, a Ugandan spokesperson said most of the aid does not reach the people who need it but then went on to say it should not be stopped, confusing to say the least because if only a trickle of the aid reaches those that need it why should we not stop it.
Sadly that is the case with a lot of aid paid to such Countries.

Are you not contradicting yourself in your opening paragraph?
You're spot on Rob, nothing has changed. The Court of Appeal has merely upheld the right of judges to jail the most serious offenders for the rest of their lives.
Quote by deancannock
I will say it again...load and clear...there is only one real deterrent and that's the chance of being caught !!! If you don't think you are going to get caught, it don't matter what the sentence is. As stated before every time the death penalty has been introduced, in whatever country, it has no effect on the murder rate !!!
Better and higher detection rate is the only deterrent.
.

But what about countries where the death penalty has been abolished? When the death penalty was abolished in the UK, the murder rate in England and Wales was 6.8 per million of population. By 2003 this figure had nearly trebled to 17.9 per million of population, although it would appear that this figure has since fallen to about 10 in 2012. Can you really be certain that the death penalty has no impact on the murder rate?
Quote by GnV
Can't find the reference now dean, but wasn't there a high court case in times past in Birmingham involving dear Arthur and his Vice President diverting charitable union funds without proper authority and the Judge in the case branded Scargill a lier after he was, ahem, found to be somewhat 'economical' with the truth in his evidence...

Try this link G

Towards the end of the article, it states
In his judgment, Mr Justice Underhill said it was very unlikely Mr Cave had written the letter. There had been "a lack of transparency" in Mr Scargill's dealings, and he had been "prepared to be economical with the truth".
The judge said: "I believe he suffers to a high degree from the common tendency to reconstruct his recollection in a manner favourable to himself."
Quote by deancannock
I may be wrong, but the government at the time succeeded in breaking the unions hold over Britain. I don't recall any union having the same power since the miners strike that they the had before those dark days?

yea....because with it they closed all industry.... No industry = No unions ......we don't have a manufacturing base anymore....!!!
That's simply not true Dean. British manufacturing output reached an all time high in 2007, even allowing for inflation. What has happened is that manufacturing has changed to high value manufacturing as globalisation has driven labour intensive manufacturing to countries with lower labour costs.
When Thatcher came to power in 1979, there were approximately 7 million people employed in manufacturing. This had fallen to just over 5 million by the time she left office and was down to about 4.5 million when Tony Blair entered office in 1997. By the time Labour lost the 2010 election, that number had reduced to 2.5 million so as many manufacturing jobs were lost under Blair and Brown as under Thatcher.
The decline in manufacturing had started before Thatcher came to power. The following figures are manufacturing expressed as a percentage of GDP.
1970. 21%
1979. 18%
1990. 15%
2010. 10%
So the decline during the a Thatcher years was 3%, the same as in the decade before she came to power , during which time the government was mainly Labour.
Quote by MidsCouple24
It is indeed a theory discussed in nerd circles all the time, most go with the theory that the large asteroids which are reduced in size by the heat they go through entering our atmosphere hit the earth all the time, that the ice and water content of these asteroids is the first thing to go during that journey, we have nothing to say that in the past one of those larger asteroids didn't bring something with it which now exists on earth and is accepted as a standard earth item, in fact don't the big bang theorists believe that we and everything on the planet started off this way.
ok so Comet Ison won't pass close to earth and there are no reports that a huge asteroid is going to hit us anytime soon.
But I have a theory, I know that the earth is being orbitted by loads of space junk, the orbits of which deteriorate and they crash to earth now and again, most of the content burns up in our atmosphere, but some gets through.
My theory involves the stuff we dump in space returning to earth, for years now astronaughts have been dumping dump in space whenever they need to go. What if it all joins together like the bits did that started the universe and the planets, what if earth gets hit by a huge turdoid ?
Worse what if aliens attempt to visit us and crash into a giant turd on their way, would they see this as an act of war and destroy the earth ?

They'd probably take fright at the size of the beings that could produce such a giant turd and bugger off back whence they came! wink
The mooted MPs pay rise was not voted for by MPs themselves. It's now done by IPSA, the parliamentary watchdog. Also, the £300 per day expenses is for the House of Lords, not the Commons.
No matter how great or small his part in the crime was, he took his share of the money. In my book he was certainly a crook and doesn't deserve the overhyped media attention.