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UKman37

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30 Apr 2005

Hi Bluexxx smile

smile

You seem to still have a bee buzzing around in your bonnet cos I locked your thread without explanation.

Not really, I'm quite calm about it all actually. I wasn't going to mention it until I noticed that another contributor had also had the same experience and was equally confused. I had some idea as to why mine had been locked ... but I'm really quite tired of it now! I only wanted to discuss whether having paid options on adult sites acutally protects women from timewasters and pervs ... but never mind.

If I lock a thread, usually I give a brief explanation of why it was locked. I didn't bother wasting my time in this case, as it was a clear breach of the AUP. If you had read the AUP you would have known instantly why it had been edited then locked (for those how don't know, UKman37 had given the name of a pay site within his post, which I edited out with XXXXXXXXs - I then locked the thread).

Yes, and anyone is free to view the thread. You actually locked two ... but no matter.

Indeed, if you had read the AUP AND abided by it, we would not be wasting our time having this discussion now, would we? As I told you in PM, I trust this matter is now resolved. If you do not think this matter is resolved I suggest you go and find something bigger and more important to think about.

I don't think many of the contributors consider some aspects of this discussion a waste of time. I think the matter has grown beyond petty grievances over posts to the whole issue of free speech in general. I personally feel that's a good thing. Moderation of forums is in itself quite an interesting topic and some people (even if only a few), feel that they want to contribute.
No one is forced to post anywhere or respond to ANY thread whatsever. No one is being coerced. People make their own choices as to whether to engage in debate or not.

29 Apr 2005

Now that is a scary thought for the ladies - spit-roasted by the chuckle brothers!!!
All we need now is Rod, Jane and Freddy posting in the LMU and the cast of Balamory out Dogging!!!
Roger the Dragon

Could be worse ... could be Bungle, George and Zippy! Ah well, would bring a whole new meaning to getting your dick caught in your zip hey? silly

silly

hwoar:

29 Apr 2005

As pointed out above, I was responding to a direct question ... and have made it clear that I included a URL in my thread .. and that I have accepted that I was at fault for this. At some point this appeared to be an issue that several people had a problem with and were willing to discuss.
I like to make substancial answers - but reply above was to Kitkat personally .. as you can see. The topic had caught a number of people's interestes and had resulted in some debate ... which is good!

29 Apr 2005

Hi Kitkat

If I understand the suggestion correctly, editing, locking and deleting should only be used for posts which have identifiably breached the site AUP.

Well, I think this is the question being asked by all. The guidelines for posting state that the Cafe is for discussing anything. Item 1 in the guidelines says that the Cafe is for anything and everything. What limits can you place on anything? If people are told they can post in this manner.. and then can't, it isn't fair, I think everyone would agree with that.
I personally recognise that there are times when posts have to be locked or edited in someway. All I'm saying is that where this needs to be done there should be a clear explantion given as to why the action has been taken, otherwise we end up with countless threads like this ... and the time needed to respond to this would have been better used taking a few moments to provide an explanation in the first place! What people seem to have an issue with is locking without explanation. Or stealth moderation as I would call it.
Sgt. Bilko has recently locked a couple of threads and pointed us to this one, as more and more threads were opening on the same topic. i personally have no problem with that.

All other topics should be left to find their own level.

Where possible, yes. Hopefully in most cases.

How would you respond flexibly to a situation not covered by the objective criteria.
For example, how would you respond to a long standing contributor who approached you on the site you moderate and said 'I used to enjoy the site, but there are so many crap posts that I just can't be bothered looking any more, can you do something about it'?

I would ask them why they considered the posts crap. I would also remind them that we are a community and as such share a responsibility for making that community what we want it to be. I would ask them what topics they would consider interesting and to go ahead and post on those topics. I would say that leaving the site or not bothering to contribute to the forum will only leave things as they are. I would suggest that they need to think of ways in which they can be a part of the solution and to give it time.
Aren't people equally likely to give up if they post and have those posts deleted before they have a chance to respond?

For a hypothetical situation for you to hang it on, a half dozen or so people on the site discover they have a shared interest in horse racing and over time open a slack handful of horse racing related threads are opened. These threads are kept afloat just from the interest shown by the small group. It is just enough to make others who are not interested in horse racing stop visiting..

Firstly, because the contributors have been told that they can post in here on "anything and everything" then there is in fact no problem with the subject matter! If people have been told that there is no limit on subjects then they can hardly be pulled up for their chosen topic!
The real problem here is that several threads have been opened on the same topic. It would be necessary to check the threads to see if any duplication is taking place. If say, four threads were open, it might be necessary to lock three of them, explain why this has happened but place links to the closed threads (for reference) in the one left open.
Everyone reading the threads can then clearly see that moderation is taking place, who is doing the moderating and why! People can then understand the rules a lot more clearly.

The defence of the group is that they are not breaking any rules, and the cafe is there to discuss any subject.

Well, they're not breaking the rules by discussing their chosen topic, unless we're saying that horse racing doesn't fit into "anything and everything". However, some direction might need to be given over not duplicating threads (and this exists in the rules for posting anyway!).
Once again, if people are complaining about the content of threads then I would encourage them to be a part of the solution. After all, moderators are there to manage the dicussions taking place, NOT have the burden of coming up with new topics all the time. After all, it's easy to sit back, criticise but then be like the people you're criticising and not make any valuable contribution. How is the person refusing to contribute any better than the person posting what they consider to be "crap" subject matter? After all, "crap" subject matter is better than no subject matter at all!
My issue is not with having to lock threads from time to time, but doing it with no explanation.

29 Apr 2005

The other day I bought some limited edition BERRY BLAST, Jaffa Cakes. Not one orange in sight!!
So, nothing to do with Jaffa, and potentially not a cake either!! Talk about misleading!!
:shock:

29 Apr 2005

Mark... this is a superb site. If it wasn't, I wouldn't stick around. As a single male it can be very difficult to get noticed and trusted around here ... but I haven't thrown the towel in yet!!
I agree, the real life interactions do set it apart in a very significant way smile

smile

I think also that sites like this will attract more weirdos and timewasters than other sites. Isn't it sad and stupid????

29 Apr 2005

Hi Mark

Just between you and me, my favourite flouncers are the ones who leave by giving us a sneak peak at their CV. I'm a Moderator on another forum and... I run my own site and... My PR firm would never allow this...

I don't think that anyone's opinion is invalidated on how long they've been a part of the site. I hope that everyone is valued from the word go.
I have pointed out that I'm a moderator on another site .. but only because I wanted to demonstrate that I am not speaking from ignorance. I have no intention of leaving. This was in response to being told to "get real" and I otherwise would probably not have mentiond it.

I guess it is just me... I get no PMs of support, no emails either... and now this; just another uninteresting self-important string of pablum to wade through... :sigh:

But that goes with the territory. That's life in fact. People only ever generally speak up when they are unhapp. When they are content they just shut up and get on with it. I have noticed plenty of comments fo support in the forums in general.
If people are invited onto a discussion forum to chit-chat about anything they want then what more can be expected?

However, we are in discussion about these locking issues. None of us want to discourage the newbies, mediumbies or oldbies from posting... the self-important-been-here-five-minutes-and-I-know-much-betterbies can take a long walk off a short pier though.

Which will effectively alienate you from them when hopefully we want the site to be fully supported. We can all play our part in that. I see no need to become dismissive or disrespectful.
I'm not saying I know better than anyone. I'm simply sharing my opinion and limited experience ... and that is exactly what I am invited to do on here. It is always better, in my opinion, to engage people directly and to not moderate undercover (as has been hinted at above).
But once again, I have no intention of leaving. it would be nice to see this site develop and grow.

29 Apr 2005

Unfotunately knowledge is power, and some like to use power to their advantage. It is very sad indeed that your trust has been abused in this way. The real beef I have with these issues is that it is the innocent who end up getting judged along with the guilty.
I usually take steps in trusting someone. I firstly contact via email (not my main email address I hasten to add), if I then feel I can trust them they get added to my MSN and . I can then begin to verify (usually by swapping pics etc), that they are who they claim to be.
Giving them my mobile number would be one of the very last steps when I was absolutely sure and then finally (and hopefully) a meet.

29 Apr 2005

I think we could go into overkill on this .. and I have already contributed in another thread on this self-same topic.
I still think that "deletion without explanation" is extremely rude and people feel affronted by it. I have been give a private explanation as to why my thread was locked and am partly content with the answer.
When we join up with a site like this, yes, we do agree to the terms and conditions. But do we sign up to authority without question? Is that what we do when we vote? Don't people's opinions and feelings matter?
We are on a site that promotes and values liberty and freedom in our sexual expression. Shouldn't this also follow through into freedom of speech?
Just to consider.

29 Apr 2005

Hi Sgt ... and thanks for showing me that this topic has been opened already.
This issue is obviously upsetting a few people ....
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopic/42564.html
and ....
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopic/42532.html
and .....
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopic/42528.html
It does seem that this matter of post deletion is one that has stirred quite a lot of interest ... and things that push people's buttons are always worthy of discussion!! lol
Firstly, it has been pointed out to me that my initial post contained a URL to another adult site and that this is against posting rules. This is fair enough and I fully accept what has been said. However, the post had been edited to replace the offending piece with a series of XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and therefore don't see why the whole topic had to be silenced.
Firstly, posting rules clearly state that the Cafe is a place for general chit-chat and a venue to discuss anything. If a topic is not popular then it will die a natural death.
As a moderator on another site, I have seen my fair share of "crap" contributions. However, crap is a statement made on the basis of a subjective value judgement and tells us very llittle. By "crap" I mean peurile or simply posted to inflame and engender an aggressive response. Most of these posts are all too readily apparent.
If something posted clearly contravenes posting rules, I will lock the thread, but place an explanation as to why the thread has been locked. However, I will then take what I consider to be the legitimate aspects of the opening post (minus the inflammatory stance and use of personal invective) and start a new thread (pointing to the old thread) so that the subject matter is open for discussion. This means that I cannot be accused of attempting to silence anyone.
No intelligent person should simply have to accept authoritative decisions without question ... and moderation should never become a power trip! Moderation simply means ensuring that individuals and contributors are treated with fairness and respect. We are on a site that values libertation and freedom in a sexual sense. If that is the case then we need to show that we value liberation and freedom in a general sense, one of the most important aspects of that being freedom of speech! Silencing someone without telling them why IS very rude. If I can openly discuss whether my ex-girlfriend preferred to spit or swallow, but my attempts to discuss the protection of women and the validity of certain methods of safeguarding them is silenced, then something has gone a bit wrong in my humble opinon. And my opinion is something I am entitled to, in the same way that I am free to express my sexuality in the way that I wish and in conjunction with consenting adults.
I always feel that "less is best" when it comes to moderation. One of the surefire ways of losing people and to destroy a community is to attempt to silence its members. Also, if moderators are too quick to step in, the action is ALWAYS perceived as a power struggle. As a moderator, I find it is much MORE powerful if other contributors vote with their feet and do the talking for you! It actually demonstrates a strength of community. A topic that gets ignored and sinks to the bottom of the pile is more powerful than one that sinks because it is forced to.
If moderators already have a shed load of work to do (and they REALLY do, hats off to them for keeping a site like this running) then it would seem more sensible to let certain threads run or die a natural death. This cuts down the workload for a start. Why delete something when really, it doesn't need to be deleted? Such behaviour also demonstrates a self assurance and confidence of leadership. It is better to dive in and comment as a fellow contributor and take the moderation hat off!
Lastly, there are certain HOT topics that will be discussed over and over, and will keep returning. This is good in my opinion. There is never any harm in revisiting certain issues. Often, you can compare your recent contributions to previous threads and see how people have evolved in their opinions and moved on. it also helps you to re-evaluate your own ideas and opinions! I for one love to have my grey matter stimulated as well as my loins!
I personally think that posts should only be locked if they contravene some objective criteria (use of personal invective etc). Locking something because "it is crap" is locking it according to some unstated subjective preference that differs from person to person and isn't good enough. For one thing, it is rude as I've said before. However, I don't see that questioning authority (including the authority of this site and the standard of moderation) is off topic .. after all, we are invited to discuss anything!! It is a valuable moment in which moderators can dive in and defend the standards and ethos of the site with great vigour!
Peace to you all.

29 Apr 2005

Welcome to the mad house. Hope you have fun!!
I'm new to all this too .. but they're a friendly bunch here ... as you can see smile

smile

29 Apr 2005

Sorry but I don't think the Mods are arbitarily locking posts.

I don't really think so either ... and certainly hope not. But with no stated reasons, how do we know? This is my point.

I can only guess but Uk in your case I would guess that it was because you are discussing the merits of charging for the service on a FREE site.

But my point is, if a reason was given at the end of the locked thread, we wouldn't have to be guessing! Yes I was discussing this, but there is nothing within the posting rules that bans such discussion and we live in a free country and enjoy free speech. I wasn't looking for a change of policy - simply a discussion concerning the effectiveness of paid services being able to ward off perverts and abusers of the system.

Swingingheaven is I would say THE BEST, THE LARGEST free swingers resource currently around. Mark, the owner (aka the black Darlek) has worked his butt off to provide us with this fabulous site FREE and everyone has an option there are a lot of very inferior pay sites out there they can migrate too if they so wish but the huge majority of us Like this site and support it any way we can. I don't know of any free site where the regulars try to help the MOds as much as they do on this site.

I don't disagree with any of this. Just because I point out one particular issue does not mean that I am down on the whole site or anyone who helps to run it. I'm just pointing out an area where there could be possible improvement. Two of us on the site have had threads locked and no reason given. I happen to have an advert on this site and frequently contact the moderators if I find something out of place, such as an advert placed in the incorrect category.

In Poppys case I have not got a clue why it was locked other than recently there has been a spate of one sided personal tales.

But, if a reason was given at the end of the locked thread then we would have a clue ... we would know, full stop! That is my point. We wouldn't even need to be having this discussion trying to guess at why!

As far as sending emails to every person who's threads are locked - please get real. These boards have hundreds of topics per week. The Mods have to read every ad to make sure it conforms to the AUP read every posting to make sure there is no unregistered emails or phone numbers, cam ads being placed in the wrong area, etc and now you want to add further burden to their workload.

It was only a suggestion .. and I said that it would probably be more effective to add the reasons to the end of the thread when locking it .. thus making the reasons clear to everyone reading it. I agree that it is time consuming and I know this from first-hand exprience.

What do you think a MOD is? They may appear superhuman but basically they are a very hardworking bunch of people who give their time and energy to maintain this site as well as they do.

I happen to be a volunteer moderator for a philosphical discussion forum. The forum probably does not enjoy the traffic that this site does .. but I'm well aware of what being a moderator entails.
As far as my own moderation goes, I would NEVER lock down a thread without first giving warning to the participants in a thread and without giving a final reason post at the end. This only seems good manners, especially if someone has taken considerable time and effort typing their contribution. Everyone participating in the thread has been warned and therefore has a chance to alter what it is they are doing wrong but also everyone reading the thread is also re-reminded of the site rules.
However, neither of the locked threads under discussion appear to have contravened the rules of posting on this site. I've re-read this site rules and nowhere can I see where they do.

They are also swingers who would like to play as well - How they manage this at the same time as as banning the twats, bollocking the berks, winding up the trolls (before nuking thier arses) Shit I reckon they are Super Men and Women. Ohhhh and they do have real lifes too.

I'm well aware of all of this. The answer could be the need for more moderators. Locking down threads without explaining why leads to confusion over site rules etc and leaves everyone trying to guess as to why it has happened.

29 Apr 2005

I've just experienced this too .... concerning a post about whether adults sites should have a paid section to help protect from perverts. I don't wish to discuss that topic here and hijack the thread ... but arbitarily locking threads does seem, well, bloddy rude, especially when not accompanied by some sort of an explanation.
If a thread is uninteresting or "crap" as suggested above then surely it would sink into oblivion anyway without needing to be locked. And if mods feel that a thread should be locked then surely the person who posted should be emailed and informed as to why the thread has been ended. If this doesn't happen then how do we know what we have done wrong and avoid doing it again? It could even be posted at the bottom of the offending thread as a lesson to other posters.
As stated above, it does seem very rude. What happened to free speech?

28 Apr 2005

HI Everyone smile

smile

I recently posted a topic that has unfortunately been locked (not sure why), but I wanted to reply to some of the comments made. I'm not therefore opening this in rebellion, simply to reply to some of the comments made.
My previous post can be found here .....
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopic/42459.html

im sure she got the odd nice person email her

Of course she did, I emailed her!!!!
Seriously though, that's the whole point.

but the bad ones pileing up in her email box put her off and i cant blame her for closeing that email address down i would have to

Exactly, and all the nice guys and their replies get deleted with them. That is one part of the point I'm making really.

i think the ad section is fine as it is
if you charge you ll still get wallys on it

That is true ... but they are less likely if they have to pay to do it.
I'm not suggesting a policy change ... just wanting to give some thought to this myself.
I asked if I was missing something, Bluexxx replied ....

Yes, you are.

Not very helpful! I don't claim to know everything and I'm not proud. I just like to think about things a bit and hear other people's opinions ... so, what am I missing?

28 Apr 2005

I currently have an ad on Swinging Heaven (267063) and am a genuine male looking for some no strings fun. I also reply to some of the adverts posted by women looking for males on this site. Recently, after sending one reply, I received this (sender to remain anonymous) ....

Just to let you know, I got your email
You replied to my ad and guess what, 600 others did as well.
I spent a couple of hours reading as many as I could but gave up.
Pictures of cocks, abuse, disgusting suggestions, you name it I read it.
I'm just a normal lady who wants a sexual relationship but no way would
I ever entertain anyone from that site. If there are any normal people from
that site do you realise that there are a lot of creeps replying along with you.
I suppose that type of site attracts every tom dick and harry and for a lady
that's dangerous. If you are not getting many replies, you can understand why.
I'm still advertising but not there.
Because so many clearly did not read my advert, I will tell you this .....
DO NOT BOTHER TO REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE.
I will not be collecting mail from this address any more so for your sake
don't waste your time.
Sorry, that's the way it goes.

Whilst I can see the many benefits of keeping a site like this free, I now also recognise the reasons why many sites choose to charge (even a nominal amount) for people who wish to access their services. It is yet another line of defence against would-be perverts and abusers. I feel that those who facilitate activities such as those promoted on this site have a social duty of care to protect their users (who might not otherwise be able to advertise and obtain contact names) from potentially harmful situations.
Whilst responsibility rests upon the shoulders of those wishing to place an advert, it would be impossible to report 600 odd email addresses, giving the details of potential abuse contained in each one. It would be MUCH easier to report another registered user, including details of any message especially if messages could only initially be sent using an internal messaging system where personal emails do not need to be given out (such as that used on the adult hub). The XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX is one good example (I think) of a site that puts up several lines of defence as advertisers have the option of blocking messages from non-paying members.
I am not suggesting for one moment that the promoters of this site do not do this. However, I do wonder if keeping the site free is proving counter-productive to many users? What do you think? Am I just rambling? Am I missing something? It would be good to hear the points of view of others - especially regular users and those who have successfully made contact with people.

21 Dec 2004

Welcome! Have fun!! smile

smile

21 Dec 2004

ASDA! "Thank God for that!" shouts M, "Just in time. I'm rapidly running out of Flash All Purpose here!" .....

21 Dec 2004

Hi Dave and welcome! Hope you stick around and have fun.

21 Dec 2004

Can't argue with most of what has been said already.
This will be my first Christmas ever away from my children following my separation - and so it will be a sad time for me sad

sad

I will miss them enormously and no amount of presents can replace their cuddles and smiles!
Christmas should be about being with the people that you want to be with - not those you feel obliged to be with - and valuing others. But then .... that should happen all year round!

14 Dec 2004

Thanks for all the warm responses folks .... I think I will enjoy it here! biggrin

biggrin

14 Dec 2004

Hi Phil
I'm new here too - but if first impressions are anything to go by, you'll soon be made to feel at home biggrin

biggrin

Have fun!

14 Dec 2004

Awww - don't go!!!
I thought it was mainly for health reasons too - and the thought of having it done as an adult is, well ................ ARGH! I can't even cope at the dentist!!

14 Dec 2004

Hi - and thanks for the replies smile

smile

14 Dec 2004

Hi all - I am new here and so wanted to make myself known.
I am unattached, 37 years old and live in Beds. I'm fairly new to all this and so coming in with an open mind.
Anyway, looks like a real friendly crowd here!

14 Dec 2004

Hi all

smile

Well, I'm new here - and this seemed as good a place as any to start posting! I am "all man" - like most men over here in the UK!