Armed forces day

29 Jun 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
The individual always has a choice.....do we forgive the SS because they were just obeying orders ?
And no I'm not comparing anyone to the SS

I certainly would not tar them all with the same brush!

29 Jun 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
The individual always has a choice.....do we forgive the SS because they were just obeying orders ?
And no I'm not comparing anyone to the SS

I certainly would not tar them all with the same brush!
I would....they perpetrated atrocities across europe and further....their acts were unforgivable and anyone participating ESPECIALLY those who knew they wrong and justified them by pretending to themselves they had no choice should bear the worlds scorn and contempt forever.
It's all about moral culpability you see....if you know what you are doing is wrong but justify it to yourself anyway are you more or less guilty than someone doing the same thing but believing they are doing right ??
In edit:so I was lying some were worse than others....those who justified their acts to themselves by telling themselves it was orders and they had to be followed were slightly more evil than the others

29 Jun 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
The individual always has a choice.....do we forgive the SS because they were just obeying orders ?
And no I'm not comparing anyone to the SS

I certainly would not tar them all with the same brush!
I would....they perpetrated atrocities across europe and further....their acts were unforgivable and anyone participating ESPECIALLY those who knew they wrong and justified them by pretending to themselves they had no choice should bear the worlds scorn and contempt forever.
It's all about moral culpability you see....if you know what you are doing is wrong but justify it to yourself anyway are you more or less guilty than someone doing the same thing but believing they are doing right ??
In edit:so I was lying some were worse than others....those who justified their acts to themselves by telling themselves it was orders and they had to be followed were slightly more evil than the others
Johann Klier
SS-Unterscharfürer. Born in 1901, Germany. In charge of the bakery and shoe storeroom. Secretly helped Jews. On the basis of victims' testimonies he was acquitted at his 1950 trial in Berlin.
We can never know his motives, but just perhaps, rather than sit back and moan about what was happening he thought he would make a difference from inside, at great risk to himself and family

29 Jun 2010

That's one ....
"I cannot exclude any member of the Sobibor camp staff of taking part in the extermination operation. We were a 'blood brotherhood gang' in a foreign land" Erich Bauer(also known as 'the gasmiester')a sergeant at Sobibor camp....Johann Klier testified on his behalf at his trial...perhaps that's not one after all.

29 Jun 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
That's one ....
"I cannot exclude any member of the Sobibor camp staff of taking part in the extermination operation. We were a 'blood brotherhood gang' in a foreign land" Erich Bauer(also known as 'the gasmiester')a sergeant at Sobibor camp....Johann Klier testified on his behalf at his trial...perhaps that's not one after all.

Thats right, thats one
On the basis of victims' testimonies he was acquitted at his 1950 trial in Berlin
I am not here to defend him, or what the SS done, but just to say that not all people are bad just cause you believe they are
Nazis and officers, and others (just cut and paisted these)
Major Karl Plagge (July 10, 1897, in Darmstadt–June 19, 1957 in Darmstadt) was a German officer and Nazi Party member who during World War II used his position as a staff officer in the Wehrmacht to employ and protect some 1,240 Jews—500 men, the others women and children, in order to give them a better chance to survive the nearly total annihilation of Lithuania’s Jews that took place between 1941–1943
Wilm Hosenfeld (full name: Wilhelm Adalbert Hosenfeld; 2 May 1895 in Mackenzell near Fulda, Hessen-Nassau, Germany–13 August 1952 near Stalingrad), originally a teacher, was a German Army officer who rose to the rank of captain by the end of the war. He helped to hide or rescue several Poles, including Jews, in Nazi-occupied Poland, and is perhaps most remembered for helping Polish-Jewish pianist and composer W?adys?aw Szpilman survive hidden in the ruins of Warsaw during the last months of 1944. In June 2009 he was posthumously recognized as a Righteous among the Nations by the Yad Vashem.
Dr. Albert Battel (21 January 1891 – 1952) was a German Wehrmacht army lieutenant and lawyer recognized for his resistance during World War II to the Nazi plans for the 1942 liquidation of the Przemy?l Jewish ghetto.
I can not and will not believe all people are bad because they are where they happen to be

29 Jun 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
That's one ....
"I cannot exclude any member of the Sobibor camp staff of taking part in the extermination operation. We were a 'blood brotherhood gang' in a foreign land" Erich Bauer(also known as 'the gasmiester')a sergeant at Sobibor camp....Johann Klier testified on his behalf at his trial...perhaps that's not one after all.

Thats right, thats one
On the basis of victims' testimonies he was acquitted at his 1950 trial in Berlin
I am not here to defend him, but just to say that not all people are bad just cause you believe they are
And knowing his actions were wrong he still participated in the murder of countless people,knowing the actions of his comrades were wrong he still testified on behalf of at least one of them their trial....he is/was still morally culpable to some degree....kill one man and save 300 you've still got blood on your hands

29 Jun 2010

Crossed in edit...
The problem remains that all the people you name,whilst saving a handful enabled the murder of are not in and of themselves 'bad (I'll assume you shied away from 'evil')they make bad choices,and in all of these cases they started making bad choices long before the actions we're talking about...The Nazi party were racist genocidal lunatics long before any camps were set up...people still joined knowing you don't want to walk a road the sensible thing to do is to take another..many did

29 Jun 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
That's one ....
"I cannot exclude any member of the Sobibor camp staff of taking part in the extermination operation. We were a 'blood brotherhood gang' in a foreign land" Erich Bauer(also known as 'the gasmiester')a sergeant at Sobibor camp....Johann Klier testified on his behalf at his trial...perhaps that's not one after all.

Thats right, thats one
On the basis of victims' testimonies he was acquitted at his 1950 trial in Berlin
I am not here to defend him, but just to say that not all people are bad just cause you believe they are
And knowing his actions were wrong he still participated in the murder of countless people,knowing the actions of his comrades were wrong he still testified on behalf of at least one of them their trial....he is/was still morally culpable to some degree....kill one man and save 300 you've still got blood on your hands
And had he not been in the SS he may not have saved any

29 Jun 2010

Oh how wonderful it is to be so self righteous!

29 Jun 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Oh how wonderful it is to be so self righteous!

You must tell us all about it one day

29 Jun 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Crossed in edit...
The problem remains that all the people you name,whilst saving a handful enabled the murder of are not in and of themselves 'bad (I'll assume you shied away from 'evil')they make bad choices,and in all of these cases they started making bad choices long before the actions we're talking about...The Nazi party were racist genocidal lunatics long before any camps were set up...people still joined knowing you don't want to walk a road the sensible thing to do is to take another..many did

I do see you point of view, to a point, however I am more inclined to see "The Yad Vashem" point of view, who have recognized some of the people I mentioned for the good they did, even when treading the wrong path.

29 Jun 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Crossed in edit...
The problem remains that all the people you name,whilst saving a handful enabled the murder of are not in and of themselves 'bad (I'll assume you shied away from 'evil')they make bad choices,and in all of these cases they started making bad choices long before the actions we're talking about...The Nazi party were racist genocidal lunatics long before any camps were set up...people still joined knowing you don't want to walk a road the sensible thing to do is to take another..many did

I do see you point of view, to a point, however I am more inclined to see "The Yad Vashem" point of view, who have recognized some of the people I mentioned for the good they did, even when treading the wrong path.
I am going to walk away from this thread as I agree with both of you..........and you have opposing views.
I need time to think.
Dave_Notts