A much discussed subject but one that can cause a change in peoples opinion quite quickly as the EU itself changes.
I know little about EU membership when you take into account the whole spectrum of what membership means to the United Kingdom.
So, what do you think, help me and perhaps others learn.
What are the advantages of being in the EU in 2013 ?
I remember when it was first announced it was all about free trade the ability to move goods easily to any Country within the EU.
It was about being able to work in EU countries without big restrictions
It was about a Market place where the combined powers of Europe could compete against the likes of the USA, China, Japan and Asia, where cheap labour and vast resources were looking to corner the market with cheap grain, cheap electronics, cheap cars, ships, steel, coal and other much needed resources.
Do we still have that problem, are not many of those Countries not now building thier car factories in Britain, are we finding that the workers coming here are far outweighing the benefits of us being able to work abroad, are sub-standard products being dumped in Britain under the ease of trade laws ?
Is our benefits system working against us ?
Are we under too many restrictions from the EU parliament and no longer able to run our own affairs.
Have our contributions to the EU become too much especially in comparison to other member states.
Have we lost too much of our Nationality simply becoming the state of the United Kingdom and not a Country in our own right,
Will things improve in the EU or are we going to be bailing out more and more member states in the near future.
What would be the downsides of leaving the EU
Could we be like Switzerland that isn't an EU member state (and is one of the richest countries in the world) and stand alone perhaps like the Swiss making limited concessions and obtaining limited benefits from the EU (your medical card (the old E111 is acceptable there for example)
Would the remaining EU member states refuse to trade with us and refuse our exports and refuse to sell us thier cars and other products (Switzerland has a healthy trade situation with EU states but can still control how it works unlike us who have to accept the trading rules of the EU)
Will travel to EU states become much more difficult or will they still welcome our tourists and business travellers through need.
SHOULD WE STAY OR SHOULD WE GO ?
This could be a very interesting debate and I believe that if people give thier honest opinions I am about to learn a lot.
And for the record, at this moment I believe we should get out now or use the fact that we are willing to get out as a wedge to get us a fairer deal, but you may change my mind on that if the arguments to maintain the status quo are compelling enough.
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Britain and the EU
Without a Google Mids I am struggling to think of anything good for the Uk being in Europe.
Yes we trade openly with Europe but we have done that since the 70's, when we joined the EEC.
There seem to be many bad points being attached more closely to Europe. Freedom for any single European to come to the UK, on a open border policy. To be honest Mids later this year I cannot see many UK residents going to Bulgaria or Romania but plenty will flock here, as even Cameron has hinted that he does not want others to come here and abuse our welfare and NHS.
We are guided like all the other Euro zone countries to be guided by Europe on all kinds of things, one of them being Human Rights laws, and the inability to deport known terrorists to other countries without Europe's say so. Look at the recent cases.
The money we spend on being a partner in Europe from where I am sitting, we are not getting value for money. As I have stated already Mids, I struggle to find many positive things from being in the European Union. If being a member in Europe allowed us to act upon our own laws, not have Europe interfering at what seems like every case that our Appeal court chucks out and then the European court then goes against us, when we spend billions every year on entry and for very little in return. Where would we be now Mids had we been in the Euro? All those experts in the Houses of Parliament saying we would be left behind in Europe if we did not change to the European money system. Where are those people now Mids, now that the Euro is all but finished and has certainly played a big part in putting other countries like Greece in a financial nightmare. Where are those people Mids?
Can anyone here tell me what this country actually gets back from Europe from the billions we put in?
Is our democratically elected Parliament allowed to act upon it's own laws in the UK? Are we run from Brussels on so many levels? Is Europe a powerhouse of Germans and French railroading the rest into submission?
Is Europe worth being in and the money we spend on it? I do not think it is worth 20% of what it costs us to be honest.
Yes we trade openly with Europe but we have done that since the 70's, when we joined the EEC.
There seem to be many bad points being attached more closely to Europe. Freedom for any single European to come to the UK, on a open border policy. To be honest Mids later this year I cannot see many UK residents going to Bulgaria or Romania but plenty will flock here, as even Cameron has hinted that he does not want others to come here and abuse our welfare and NHS.
We are guided like all the other Euro zone countries to be guided by Europe on all kinds of things, one of them being Human Rights laws, and the inability to deport known terrorists to other countries without Europe's say so. Look at the recent cases.
The money we spend on being a partner in Europe from where I am sitting, we are not getting value for money. As I have stated already Mids, I struggle to find many positive things from being in the European Union. If being a member in Europe allowed us to act upon our own laws, not have Europe interfering at what seems like every case that our Appeal court chucks out and then the European court then goes against us, when we spend billions every year on entry and for very little in return. Where would we be now Mids had we been in the Euro? All those experts in the Houses of Parliament saying we would be left behind in Europe if we did not change to the European money system. Where are those people now Mids, now that the Euro is all but finished and has certainly played a big part in putting other countries like Greece in a financial nightmare. Where are those people Mids?
Can anyone here tell me what this country actually gets back from Europe from the billions we put in?
Is our democratically elected Parliament allowed to act upon it's own laws in the UK? Are we run from Brussels on so many levels? Is Europe a powerhouse of Germans and French railroading the rest into submission?
Is Europe worth being in and the money we spend on it? I do not think it is worth 20% of what it costs us to be honest.
Sex God
may be worth a read.
Quote by Trevaunance
This may be worth a read.
The "Life of Brian" connection was excellent, but unlike highlighting some excellent pros for welcoming the Romans a lot of what was said in that "debate"
worked the other way ....... peace - when did that happen, safer food - maybe food variety many people believed they had eaten horse before lol, security - easy travel for terrorists, cheap flights - I thought that was virgin and so many more of the things quoted.
But an excellent post from a fun point of view and all threads need a little humour injecting into them now and again.
Now get back to your serious posting you have been a very naughty boy (and leave that welsh tart alone)
P.S. is cornish Pelican and albatross actually made from horsemeat ?
Quote by MidsCouple24
But STARLIGHT remember HISTORY
I am sure Mids we must have agreed on something before this? :lol:
Seriously though.........being a member of what I think is a defunked membership, surely cannot be beneficial to the uk?
Certainly partial agreement and thankfully some non-agreement, but this I think is a first for the total agreement.
And in the words of Big Brother fans GET BRITAIN OUT! GET BRITAIN OUT! GET BRITAIN OUT!
AND
If Scotland does vote to leave the United Kingdom will they have to apply for EU membership as a Nation in thier own right, would they be allowed to be an EU state, would they be swapping membership of one Group of Nations for another, would they want to join ?
And in the words of Big Brother fans GET BRITAIN OUT! GET BRITAIN OUT! GET BRITAIN OUT!
AND
If Scotland does vote to leave the United Kingdom will they have to apply for EU membership as a Nation in thier own right, would they be allowed to be an EU state, would they be swapping membership of one Group of Nations for another, would they want to join ?
Sex God
According to an article in the Times today the foreign owned car plants currently operating in the UK sell four out of five cars into Europe giving Nissan and others a competitive edge. If they were to export from Japan every car would have an import duty levied. If Britain is out of the EU and that trading benefit is lost would there be a reason or need to maintain UK car plants when production could be switched to an EU country. Not sure how many people are now employed by foreign owned car manufacturers in the UK but any withdrawal from Europe would be a concern to them.
Not quite the rabid UKIP / Nationalist story normally peddled in the media and for that reason probably ignored by those with. "the agenda."
Not quite the rabid UKIP / Nationalist story normally peddled in the media and for that reason probably ignored by those with. "the agenda."
Quote by Too Hot
According to an article in the Times today the foreign owned car plants currently operating in the UK sell four out of five cars into Europe giving Nissan and others a competitive edge. If they were to export from Japan every car would have an import duty levied. If Britain is out of the EU and that trading benefit is lost would there be a reason or need to maintain UK car plants when production could be switched to an EU country. Not sure how many people are now employed by foreign owned car manufacturers in the UK but any withdrawal from Europe would be a concern to them.
Not quite the rabid UKIP / Nationalist story normally peddled in the media and for that reason probably ignored by those with. "the agenda."
No agenda here TH just an inability to understand why we are in Europe.
The UK gives 13.8 billion Euros which is roughly 12 BILLION pounds. I cannot for the life of me see either where that money goes for the UK, or what we get out of it for that huge amount of money. Has anyone any idea what that kind of money buys in the UK? I would say that the huge problems this country currently faces, would be a damn site better for all of us if that 12 billion pounds was spent within the UK.
12 billion pounds????? That is a fecking awful lot of money. Does anyone here know what we get for that and how much of that this country actually gets back? You quote something about ' trading benefit lost ', why would Europe want to stop trading with the UK? That would be suicide for many firms be it British or any other European country. Trade with Europe.......of course..........be run by Europe over our own Government..........no. That was never the original intention of us joining, just over years and years the British people have never had a proper say as to how Europe affects us all now. Give the people the choice on Europe and end all this nonsense.
The example you give above TH is a tad confusing and a bit of a myth I would say. If the UK opted to get out of Europe BUT still trade with Europe as was originally the case of the EEC, why would Nissan want to move it's plant from a very profitable North East back to Japan?
I think that would be an argument used by the pro Europe brigade to confuse the people. Getting out of the European Union ( the clue is in the name TH )would not mean stopping trading with Europe. But tell someone who knows little about Europe that we will be forced to stop trading with Europe and all the British jobs that would be lost, would be a ruse to try and persuade people to vote to stay in. Was that what your point was trying to do TH?
Quote by Too Hot
According to an article in the Times today the foreign owned car plants currently operating in the UK sell four out of five cars into Europe giving Nissan and others a competitive edge. If they were to export from Japan every car would have an import duty levied. If Britain is out of the EU and that trading benefit is lost would there be a reason or need to maintain UK car plants when production could be switched to an EU country. Not sure how many people are now employed by foreign owned car manufacturers in the UK but any withdrawal from Europe would be a concern to them.
Not quite the rabid UKIP / Nationalist story normally peddled in the media and for that reason probably ignored by those with. "the agenda."
A very valid and important point because I assume this would not just affect cars, I think the government would have to assess the possibilities of losing some or all Companies in such a situation, taking into account the consequences and if it would be viable for companies to build new factories in europe, and try and assess how much import duty countries would level against UK imports when the fact is most countries export more goods to us that we import to them, it could be a double edged sword (or bowie knife)
whereby we can keep export/import duty down by mutual agreement and negotiation, kinda like the EU were supposed to be there for not totaliarian rules. Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
According to an article in the Times today the foreign owned car plants currently operating in the UK sell four out of five cars into Europe giving Nissan and others a competitive edge. If they were to export from Japan every car would have an import duty levied. If Britain is out of the EU and that trading benefit is lost would there be a reason or need to maintain UK car plants when production could be switched to an EU country. Not sure how many people are now employed by foreign owned car manufacturers in the UK but any withdrawal from Europe would be a concern to them.
Not quite the rabid UKIP / Nationalist story normally peddled in the media and for that reason probably ignored by those with. "the agenda."
No agenda here TH just an inability to understand why we are in Europe.
The UK gives 13.8 billion Euros which is roughly 12 BILLION pounds. I cannot for the life of me see either where that money goes for the UK, or what we get out of it for that huge amount of money. Has anyone any idea what that kind of money buys in the UK? I would say that the huge problems this country currently faces, would be a damn site better for all of us if that 12 billion pounds was spent within the UK.
12 billion pounds????? That is a fecking awful lot of money. Does anyone here know what we get for that and how much of that this country actually gets back? You quote something about ' trading benefit lost ', why would Europe want to stop trading with the UK? That would be suicide for many firms be it British or any other European country. Trade with Europe.......of course..........be run by Europe over our own Government..........no. That was never the original intention of us joining, just over years and years the British people have never had a proper say as to how Europe affects us all now. Give the people the choice on Europe and end all this nonsense.
The example you give above TH is a tad confusing and a bit of a myth I would say. If the UK opted to get out of Europe BUT still trade with Europe as was originally the case of the EEC, why would Nissan want to move it's plant from a very profitable North East back to Japan?
I think that would be an argument used by the pro Europe brigade to confuse the people. Getting out of the European Union ( the clue is in the name TH )would not mean stopping trading with Europe. But tell someone who knows little about Europe that we will be forced to stop trading with Europe and all the British jobs that would be lost, would be a ruse to try and persuade people to vote to stay in. Was that what your point was trying to do TH?
You need to research your stuff Star instead of churning out the same UKIP drivel. You clearly know nothing at all about cross border trading either within the EU or outside of it.
We entered into a Common Market to take advantage of free trade with the EU - ie no import/export duties. If we left the now EU and went outside of the free trade area then the UK would be wide open to the imposition of import/export tarifs by the now enlarged EU to whom we export more than we import. Why would an enlarged EU allow us to export more to them free of tarifs when we take so little from them? It does not make sense and flies in the face of the whole reason the Common Market was established. You can't just say - yes of course we will trade - import/export duties have an immediate effect on a Companies bottom line and invariably dictate whether they can, or can't, export/import.
Just yesterday, Heinz were taken over by a VC/W. Buffet conglomerate, they like General Motors and Nissan are relient on their UK divisions to be able to export freely across Europe. There is simply no point in their resources remaining in the UK if import duties were the same as from their HQ country. It would make far more sense to relocate to an EU country where distribution, taxation and duties are simpler. On the subject of Heinz and GM, it has probably not escaped your attention that the two economic powerhouses of Europe and the USA are currently discussing a US/EU trade agreement such is the volume of cross trade - just where would that leave little old England and all its Little Englanders? Right up shit creek - that is where.
The drive to get the UK out of Europe is mind bogglingly stupid on every level and it would plunge this country into one of the worst recessions in history. Virtually all of our industrial capacity is now foreign owned and the main export market is Europe.
Yes not being members of the EU could mean our exports incur import duties when arriving in other countries but and therefore make products originating in the UK more expensive, but a £12 Billion cost cut may be able to help out there by making it cheaper for companies to remain in the UK or come to the UK and as I said import tax works both ways, long gone are the days when the UK worried about balancing exports and imports and theses days we do import far more than we export.
Give the revenue we would get but currently dont from import tax in a tax reduction to companies exporting to EU countries to compensate them, use some of it to maintain current prices of goods imported that would go up in price because of the import tax we set.
Countries in the EU will know that and they would have to be reasonable with thier import tax rates or incur higher costs for exporting thier goods to the UK, add to the EU contributions saved the amount we would save in benefits being paid to EU subjects for example the 40,0000 children living in Poland and recieving child benefit would instantly lose that benefit, every EU member currently living in the UK and those wishing to do so would have to apply for work visas and visas to be here, many are an asset and these should be granted but many "do nothing for us" and should go somewhere else.
It would ease the housing problem, perhaps create more jobs (by freeing up jobs where we believe we could fill them with those authorised to live in the UK.
I don't know all the answers but there are areas that can be looked into without it being a "cant do that because" scenario.
Give the revenue we would get but currently dont from import tax in a tax reduction to companies exporting to EU countries to compensate them, use some of it to maintain current prices of goods imported that would go up in price because of the import tax we set.
Countries in the EU will know that and they would have to be reasonable with thier import tax rates or incur higher costs for exporting thier goods to the UK, add to the EU contributions saved the amount we would save in benefits being paid to EU subjects for example the 40,0000 children living in Poland and recieving child benefit would instantly lose that benefit, every EU member currently living in the UK and those wishing to do so would have to apply for work visas and visas to be here, many are an asset and these should be granted but many "do nothing for us" and should go somewhere else.
It would ease the housing problem, perhaps create more jobs (by freeing up jobs where we believe we could fill them with those authorised to live in the UK.
I don't know all the answers but there are areas that can be looked into without it being a "cant do that because" scenario.
Quote by Too Hot
You need to research your stuff Star instead of churning out the same UKIP drivel. You clearly know nothing at all about cross border trading either within the EU or outside of it.
That was my drivel actually TH, nothing to do with UKIP.
You are also correct in that I know nothing of cross border trading. :thumbup:Quote by Too Hot
We entered into a Common Market to take advantage of free trade with the EU - ie no import/export duties. If we left the now EU and went outside of the free trade area then the UK would be wide open to the imposition of import/export tarifs by the now enlarged EU to whom we export more than we import.
Yes I get that but surely other European countries exporting to the UK, would not want export duties imposed on their companies from the UK? This to be honest TH is all complete guesswork as we do not know what Europe would do if the people of this country wanted out. Do we know for sure that if Britain was out of Europe that any duties would actually be imposed on us?
Quote by Too Hot
The drive to get the UK out of Europe is mind bogglingly stupid on every level and it would plunge this country into one of the worst recessions in history. Virtually all of our industrial capacity is now foreign owned and the main export market is Europe.
Of course that is the way you see things, but a bigger percentage of people do not see it your way and simply want out. You are so dismissive of that point.
What were the terms set out to Britain when we first joined the EEC? What trading terms did we sign up for?
Bottom line TH if we quit the EU, would France still sell us wine, would the Germans still sell us cars? Could France afford for us to buy their wine from elsewhere if they started imposing duties? For most people TH Europe is an over inflated balloon of cash, our cash. People in the UK whatever you may think, are sick and tired of this country being told what to do by Brussels. That is how people see Europe. The people of this country I believe would vote to stay in Europe if Europe stopped meddling in our affairs. Whether this is true or not makes no difference, as that is how Europe is perceived.
Europe continually makes new laws and new rules. A lot of what happens in this country decided upon by Brussels is NOT what we signed up for at the last referendum. We voted to freely trade with Europe....period. Over the last 20 years Europe have railroaded us into entering a European Union that no single member of the public voted for. It is time to put this to bed once and for all, and give the people of this country the chance to decide. Both sides will put forward their debates, and then just like when electing a democratic Government, we can decide . Is that not what great democracy should be all about TH? Or are you still saying the British public are just too damn thick to be given that choice?
Because people like you think it is wrong to want to get out? Politics eh..........two sides of a coin and always two sets of rules. Sex God
Unfortunately any exit from the EU by the UK will be acrimoneous and spiteful. Our major manufacturing industries are not UK owned and the biggest are not reliant on the UK market but the European market. An inability to trade competitively with Europe will result in catastrophic redundancies in the very biggest companies, as well as the smallest. Foreign corporate owners would hold no empathy for employees who voted themselves out of a competitive market place.
Believe it or not most EU citizens (if not the Politicians) can see that the EU is in need of reform because it is not working in one way or another (and for different reasons) for them. Reform is essential and support for this will come from Germany and the greatest opposition from France.
The modern world is a global world made of large trading and military alliances. There is not a single cogent reason why the UK should quite Europe even now, let alone after a revamped EU. The world has changed and we are neither big enough, nor bright enough to punch our way alone in the world. The only people who can't see that are the small minded little englanders who still think we are better and bigger than everyone else and who are living on past glories. For good, or for bad, our future is dependant on modern alliances not on nostalgia. Our capital city is now 45% white, ethnic British so let's get with the modern world - get stuck into revamping Europe, change it and make it work for everyone.
Believe it or not most EU citizens (if not the Politicians) can see that the EU is in need of reform because it is not working in one way or another (and for different reasons) for them. Reform is essential and support for this will come from Germany and the greatest opposition from France.
The modern world is a global world made of large trading and military alliances. There is not a single cogent reason why the UK should quite Europe even now, let alone after a revamped EU. The world has changed and we are neither big enough, nor bright enough to punch our way alone in the world. The only people who can't see that are the small minded little englanders who still think we are better and bigger than everyone else and who are living on past glories. For good, or for bad, our future is dependant on modern alliances not on nostalgia. Our capital city is now 45% white, ethnic British so let's get with the modern world - get stuck into revamping Europe, change it and make it work for everyone.
If we were outside the EU ,,,,We would be like a corner shop trying to compete with Tesco !!Reform may indeed be required.....but europe as a trading block can negotiate so much better deals with other countries such as USA and Pacific Rim block. USA has already warned us about pulling out from Europe. This is why the gamble by David Cameron is so scarey. To pull away from Europe would leave us isolated and totally vunerable.
Quote by Too Hot
Unfortunately any exit from the EU by the UK will be acrimoneous and spiteful. Our major manufacturing industries are not UK owned and the biggest are not reliant on the UK market but the European market. An inability to trade competitively with Europe will result in catastrophic redundancies in the very biggest companies, as well as the smallest. Foreign corporate owners would hold no empathy for employees who voted themselves out of a competitive market place.
Believe it or not most EU citizens (if not the Politicians) can see that the EU is in need of reform because it is not working in one way or another (and for different reasons) for them. Reform is essential and support for this will come from Germany and the greatest opposition from France.
The modern world is a global world made of large trading and military alliances. There is not a single cogent reason why the UK should quite Europe even now, let alone after a revamped EU. The world has changed and we are neither big enough, nor bright enough to punch our way alone in the world. The only people who can't see that are the small minded little englanders who still think we are better and bigger than everyone else and who are living on past glories. For good, or for bad, our future is dependant on modern alliances not on nostalgia. Our capital city is now 45% white, ethnic British so let's get with the modern world - get stuck into revamping Europe, change it and make it work for everyone.
That was a party political broadcast by Too Hot from Swinging Heaven Towers inc.
Sex God
Rather regrettably it simply shows the ignorance of the people who were polled and illustrates how the media controls society at large - just ask Josef Goebbels.
Reminds of Turkeys voting for Christmas as they were promised to get out of the pen.
As a matter of interest this link from the same newspaper has a slightly different slant on the blame for all our troubles:
Reminds of Turkeys voting for Christmas as they were promised to get out of the pen.
As a matter of interest this link from the same newspaper has a slightly different slant on the blame for all our troubles:
Quote by Too Hot
Rather regrettably it simply shows the ignorance of the people who were polled and illustrates how the media controls society at large - just ask Josef Goebbels.
Reminds of Turkeys voting for Christmas as they were promised to get out of the pen.
Makes no difference TH as you know what the outcome will be if and when the people ever get a chance to vote on Europe.
As an idea.......if the people vote to get out and you think people are too thick to understand, you could always move abroad and be amongst your fellow Europeans. Hows that for an idea?
Fancy a bit of Poland, or a tad of Bulgaria, or what about a little spot of Italy? Well seeing as those countries are so prosperous that their citizens want to stay there so much, you would feel right at home. :rascal: I am sure you would fit right in.
Do you think we will actually get a referendum on it, first those promising it have to retain the power to implement it, then they have to want to implement it and not just be using the promise of a referendum on something or a change of something to gain votes before an election then coming up with a reason why they cant do it when they reaped the benefits of saying it.
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
Rather regrettably it simply shows the ignorance of the people who were polled and illustrates how the media controls society at large - just ask Josef Goebbels.
Reminds of Turkeys voting for Christmas as they were promised to get out of the pen.
Makes no difference TH as you know what the outcome will be if and when the people ever get a chance to vote on Europe.
As an idea.......if the people vote to get out and you think people are too thick to understand, you could always move abroad and be amongst your fellow Europeans. Hows that for an idea?
Fancy a bit of Poland, or a tad of Bulgaria, or what about a little spot of Italy? Well seeing as those countries are so prosperous that their citizens want to stay there so much, you would feel right at home. :rascal: I am sure you would fit right in.
You can be absolutely assured that if Britain votes itself out of a reformed Europe then we will be packing our bags not long after. I have previously spent 15 years in Spain and whilst I may not go back there again - moving abroad is no big deal for me as I can operate my business from anywhere.
It would be a dark day in Britains history if the Turkeys voted for Christmas but I do fear that you are right and they will do just that because we have a seriously dumbed down society. Look at the political landscape now... Millions on the UKIP bandwagon because of an anti European stance - forget the fact that UKIP offer an extreme form of conservatism with all of their other policies.
Sex God
Has anyone ever heard the phrase 'Hidden in plain sight'?
The whole reason why we won't get a referendum is because of the part of DC's speech that is hidden in plain sight and everyone keeps forgetting about.
Oh, and it's the part I keep harping on about too
The whole reason why we won't get a referendum is because of the part of DC's speech that is hidden in plain sight and everyone keeps forgetting about.
Oh, and it's the part I keep harping on about too
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
Do you think we will actually get a referendum on it, first those promising it have to retain the power to implement it, then they have to want to implement it and not just be using the promise of a referendum on something or a change of something to gain votes before an election then coming up with a reason why they cant do it when they reaped the benefits of saying it.
Labour have said that they won't have a referendum
Lib Dems have said that they won't have a referendum
Conservatives will offer a referendum and hope that they will have sufficiently reformed Europe to make leaving it a nonsense.
UKIP just want out, now, today cos they can't think big enough or have the clout to negotiate with anyone.
So anyone who wants a say in Europe needs to vote conservative at the next election - and why wouldn't you if you care about our place in Europe?
bloody hell TO HOT...talk about turkeys voting for xmas......if you are urgeing people to vote conservative and want to stay inside europe...is that not what you are doing.
Just two comments above you say, you fear that if we had a vote the people would vote us out of Europe and it would be such a dark day that you would up and leave. You also point out Labour and the LibDems won't have a vote, and so therfore we stay in Europe, even if it is be de-fault.
People would know voting for UKIP in a general election would be a sheer waste. So you are clearly saying vote Conservative to get a referendum and to get out of europe !!
I have to say once presented with the stark facts of the matter, it will be a bloody close run thing, and we will stay in by skin of our teeth. however I think it is a very dangerous game of russian roulette that David Cameron is playing, and it could just as easily come back to shoot him straight in the foot !!!
Just two comments above you say, you fear that if we had a vote the people would vote us out of Europe and it would be such a dark day that you would up and leave. You also point out Labour and the LibDems won't have a vote, and so therfore we stay in Europe, even if it is be de-fault.
People would know voting for UKIP in a general election would be a sheer waste. So you are clearly saying vote Conservative to get a referendum and to get out of europe !!
I have to say once presented with the stark facts of the matter, it will be a bloody close run thing, and we will stay in by skin of our teeth. however I think it is a very dangerous game of russian roulette that David Cameron is playing, and it could just as easily come back to shoot him straight in the foot !!!
Sex God
Sorry Dean, but it's not as clear cut as re-elect conservative and vote on whether to stay in Europe. Your forgetting the hidden clause, just like so many others.
Sex God
Quote by deancannock
bloody hell TO HOT...talk about turkeys voting for xmas......if you are urgeing people to vote conservative and want to stay inside europe...is that not what you are doing.
Just two comments above you say, you fear that if we had a vote the people would vote us out of Europe and it would be such a dark day that you would up and leave. You also point out Labour and the LibDems won't have a vote, and so therfore we stay in Europe, even if it is be de-fault.
People would know voting for UKIP in a general election would be a sheer waste. So you are clearly saying vote Conservative to get a referendum and to get out of europe !!
I have to say once presented with the stark facts of the matter, it will be a bloody close run thing, and we will stay in by skin of our teeth. however I think it is a very dangerous game of russian roulette that David Cameron is playing, and it could just as easily come back to shoot him straight in the foot !!!
Europe needs reforming and ALL the citizens of Europe want this even if their politicians don't. Look at the very regular protests in Greece and the protests last week in Spain and Portugal. Their wishes for reform are different to ours but reform is needed on all sorts of levels. Countries all over Europe need to take back some autonomy from Europe whilst retaining the benefits of the original common market.
David Cameron could go down in history as one of the greatest leaders in modern Europe if he can get the changes through. Politically he has sown it up here in the UK as there is an anti European sentiment and Labour and the Lib Dems are not acting on it which will put them out of the race at the next election UNLESS a huge pro-European tidal wave washes over us in the next 2 years and we get ready for another term of lovely complacency and wastage.
Quote by Too Hot
Do you think we will actually get a referendum on it, first those promising it have to retain the power to implement it, then they have to want to implement it and not just be using the promise of a referendum on something or a change of something to gain votes before an election then coming up with a reason why they cant do it when they reaped the benefits of saying it.
Labour have said that they won't have a referendum
Lib Dems have said that they won't have a referendum
Conservatives will offer a referendum and hope that they will have sufficiently reformed Europe to make leaving it a nonsense.
UKIP just want out, now, today cos they can't think big enough or have the clout to negotiate with anyone.
So anyone who wants a say in Europe needs to vote conservative at the next election - and why wouldn't you if you care about our place in Europe?
Yep personally I will go along with that, right now I want out of europe, tomorrow is a day too late, BUT, I would rather see it reformed and Britain given a fairer deal and all Countries allowed to run much of their own affairs, I never thought a market, common or otherwise ran the Government, our local market doesn't run our council, it was supposed to be about trading wasn't it ?
And letting Countries into it that can finance their part in it is stupid, Lithuania and the like with more Eastern European Countries trying to get in, those Countries are desperate to trade with the West instead of Russia common market or no common market status.
Let the EU get back to what it is good at, creating a trading market for goods not laws.
Quote by Too Hot
Look at the very regular protests in Greece and the protests last week in Spain and Portugal. Their wishes for reform are different to ours
Why are these countries protesting?? Greece is simply skint by entering the Euro and having no control over it's own monetary system. One of the oldest and most famous of times of history, reduced to a quivering wreck of no money and no jobs and having to beg for it's next meal. Portugal and in particular Spain are very close to the edge. Jobs at an all time low, their money almost not worth the paper it is written on, and there but for the grace goes the Euro.
Oh yes TH.......their reforms are a damn site differant to ours and I bet my testicles that if those countries could go back to the days before the Euro, I wonder what currency they would be using?
Quote by Too Hot
David Cameron could go down in history as one of the greatest leaders in modern Europe if he can get the changes through. Politically he has sown it up here in the UK as there is an anti European sentiment and Labour and the Lib Dems are not acting on it which will put them out of the race at the next election UNLESS a huge pro-European tidal wave washes over us in the next 2 years and we get ready for another term of lovely complacency and wastage.
DC ain't a patch on Maggie, and he would never match her as a PM. The guy is a liar and a fraud like all the others. False promises before he was PM, and reneged on them all. If you think he could be our greatest ever PM under any circumstances, sorry TH you have had a glass of rum too much.
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
Yep personally I will go along with that, right now I want out of europe, tomorrow is a day too late, BUT, I would rather see it reformed and Britain given a fairer deal and all Countries allowed to run much of their own affairs, I never thought a market, common or otherwise ran the Government, our local market doesn't run our council, it was supposed to be about trading wasn't it ?
Proof that people don't see what they are offered?
Quote by starlightcouple
DC ain't a patch on Maggie, and he would never match her as a PM.
I for one am suprised Star,
