After the terrible attack in London I wonder if UKIP would / could / should promise a referendum on bringing back the death penalty for terrorism and killing of police officers ? If they did I suspect it would push them even higher in the polls. Doubt Lib-dems or Labour could say they would do the same thing, but would the Tories have to follow suit to stay in the race ? John
This is right up star's street but it seems he is somewhat indisposed again But if he was able to answer for himself, he'd certainly have to remember that whilst the UK is a member of the EU, the death penalty is not an option. It offends every human right issue imaginable in Europe and it is extremely doubtful that the Westminster Parliament - no matter who is in power - would vote for its reintroduction if they were free to do so. So then, we will just have to leave it to the Police to execute terrorists. However, that is extremely unlikely in the event that Britain's finest plod take 20 minutes to arrive at the scene and a significant public gathering has already assembled!
For the 2 sadistic bastards who killed that poor soldier I believe capital punishment should be the way... There's no arguing or contesting their guilt.... Hang em......Shoot em.....
I don't believe in capital punishment and in this case double so as it would be far far too quick. The sort of punishment i'd mete out would involve a very basic cell very basic foodstuff a hammer and a lifetime, and I mean lifetime, supply of large rocks. Oh and one way mirror so the outside can look in and see a monster.
For those two absolutely NOT. They tried "death by cop" as a way to send them into martyrdom and off to meet their forty virgins. Tough shit for them that it did not happen and they can now spend the rest of their miserable fucked up lives repenting and regretting in Belmarsh prison. Death is what they wanted and instead we can wish them a long and unpleasant LIFE. With a bit of luck the gunshot wounds will have disabled them permanently and so make their lives even more agonising. Irrespective of this incident, Capital Punishment by the State has no place in the modern world. Assuming that the debate is about retribution and revenge? It actually releases the culprits from punishment which is not really what we want if we are looking for revenge.
I'm sure Allah saved these two guys so that he could watch their every pain, as the home made infected shanks pull through every nerve ending as they slice through their skin in the showers, to watch their faces melt with boiling water with added sugar to make it stick, as its thrown in their faces, to listen to the bones crack and break when the screw forgets to lock their cells three words for these guys when they get sentenced. "welcome to hell" this is YOUR reward and don't worry, Allah WILL be be watching every minute of it. i think the death sentence would be a travesty. for me the only way i can think to support this guy after his untimely death would be to wear the help for heroes brand as ordered today
No, Nope, Never, but if it was, why just for the murder of a police officer, why not the same for anyone going about their job, security guards, firepersons, nurses, the binman, I recall a taxi driver murdered by Miners because he was taking people to work at the pitts ? What we need is life imprisonment to mean life imprisonment, hard labour for those convicted, expulsion from the UK for any immigrant families of those convicted. Those that carry out suicide attacks don't care about themselves, they want to die as part of the act because they believe it will give them a better life in the afterlife, the death penalty is not a detterent, if they thought their families would be affected they might just think differently. Being imprisoned for the rest of their lives with no chance of parole takes away the opportunity of that "better afterlife" and hard labour for life is far worse than lethal injection or the gas chamber to someone who has decided to die for what they believe. Add to that the number of "mistakes" in convictions that have taken place one innocent persons life makes us as bad as them. I would also give life sentances for those convicted of "attempted murder" ie those that fail in their attempts, there have been a lot of terrorists arrested recently when their attacks were foiled.
Those 2 scum bags should be given to the Regiment that the innocent soldier came from and say here lads do as you will. No date , no time, no cameras, no media , No martyrdom , let them just dissapear. No tax payers money keeping this shit of society alive !
Quote by funswing92 Those 2 scum bags should be given to the Regiment that the innocent soldier came from and say here lads do as you will. No date , no time, no cameras, no media , No martyrdom , let them just dissapear. No tax payers money keeping this shit of society alive !
I know what you mean Fun, but it's never going to happen, and I'd like to think that the citizens of the UK wouldn't allow it. However, if these extremists regard themselves as 'true' Muslims, perhaps they should be sent to a 'true' Muslim country for trial and sentencing? I think that would only be fair. I have to add that none of my Muslim friends and family anywhere in the world condone these acts of violence. They're all far removed from this extremism, and are all the more horrified that this seems to be happening in the name of their God.
Quote by funswing92 Those 2 scum bags should be given to the Regiment that the innocent soldier came from and say here lads do as you will. No date , no time, no cameras, no media , No martyrdom , let them just dissapear. No tax payers money keeping this shit of society alive !
Generally I don't really go in for abandoning all rational thought in the face of criminal acts against us, I tend to favour that whole rule of law thing. It can be so very tiresome though so I am leaning towards giving in to the dark, visceral side of human nature with an emotional over-reaction. I mean, that's the last thing a terrorist would want, isn't it?
Quote by neilinleeds Those 2 scum bags should be given to the Regiment that the innocent soldier came from and say here lads do as you will. No date , no time, no cameras, no media , No martyrdom , let them just dissapear. No tax payers money keeping this shit of society alive !
Generally I don't really go in for abandoning all rational thought in the face of criminal acts against us, I tend to favour that whole rule of law thing. It can be so very tiresome though so I am leaning towards giving in to the dark, visceral side of human nature with an emotional over-reaction. I mean, that's the last thing a terrorist would want, isn't it? i think the gravity of this crime has made so many angry Neil and you are of course right (save that bit for future use against me if wish lol ) the outrage at this crime i fear is festering and living local to woolwich i fear things could escalate this coming weekend what i find absurd is the media often reports of people imprisoned for inciting hatred on social media sites, whilst extremists are often allowed to do such in public with little or no reprisal from the authorities you have to wonder where and how it ends as an atheist I'm enjoying the rants by pat condell at the moment
Quote by Lizaleanrob i think the gravity of this crime has made so many angry Neil and you are of course right (save that bit for future use against me if wish lol ) the outrage at this crime i fear is festering and living local to woolwich i fear things could escalate this coming weekend
Course I understand that Rob, I know where responses like the above come from. It is playing the terrorist's game precisely though, allowing them to set the agenda and tone. If terrorism is an attempt to promote division, fear and hatred in the hope a completely irrational, excessive over-reaction to the act helps radicalise others to the cause in response then it seems lots have been reeled in like fish in the last couple of days. I despair of it, it's such sheep-like behaviour. How do we counter extremists who according to all the rhetoric would like us to lower our standards to those they would apparently like to impose, except by maintaining our standards in defiance of them? The minute we toss out our own long-established values in response to a terrorist threat we lose, cos at that point we will have done exactly what they're trying to achieve all by ourselves. A return to capital punishment I would tend to include there, just to answer John's question. The only appropriate response to acts of this kind is to refuse to play along with the extremists' agenda and stand united against it as an attack on us all, Muslim and none-Muslim alike. All of us need to resist simplistic responses and simplistic 'solutions'.
Quote by neilinleeds i think the gravity of this crime has made so many angry Neil and you are of course right (save that bit for future use against me if wish lol ) the outrage at this crime i fear is festering and living local to woolwich i fear things could escalate this coming weekend
Course I understand that Rob, I know where responses like the above come from. It is playing the terrorist's game precisely though, allowing them to set the agenda and tone. If terrorism is an attempt to promote division, fear and hatred in the hope a completely irrational, excessive over-reaction to the act helps radicalise others to the cause in response then it seems lots have been reeled in like fish in the last couple of days. I despair of it, it's such sheep-like behaviour. How do we counter extremists who according to all the rhetoric would like us to lower our standards to those they would apparently like to impose, except by maintaining our standards in defiance of them? The minute we toss out our own long-established values in response to a terrorist threat we lose, cos at that point we will have done exactly what they're trying to achieve all by ourselves. A return to capital punishment I would tend to include there, just to answer John's question. The only appropriate response to acts of this kind is to refuse to play along with the extremists' agenda and stand united against it as an attack on us all, Muslim and none-Muslim alike. All of us need to resist simplistic responses and simplistic 'solutions'. your are right of course(again lol) but acts such as these like you say do become tedious and fuels the fears of those less rational than us. i know what awaits them in prison and will welcome the sentences, they truly are going to hell how we move on from this is up to others, but this will seriously impact how others may vote for the likes of ukip and further add support to other extremists like the EDL my biggest disappointment has been the response from the government, by not stating that these guys will spend the rest of their living days in prison with no chance of release well i'm of to bacleona for a long weekend so enjoy the rest of the debate
Quote by GnV However, that is extremely unlikely in the event that Britain's finest plod take 20 minutes to arrive at the scene and a significant public gathering has already assembled!
I would say that 'Brisith finests plod' taking 20 minutes and who you appear to be mocking for doing so, reacted very well under the circumstances and I for one are glad they're on out streets. --- I think we've seriously over-reacted re Govt/Press mutterings, all it's done is give others looking in who want to murder and maim in the fu**ed up name of terrorism a lowered springboard/threshold in which to launch themselves and their cause on to the world stand. Today in a rushed media get our news agency out there press conference we have a grieving family paraded to all the world, to see how 'hurt' we as a nation are, utterly ridiculous.... How long will it be before a copycat killing will be in attendance?
Thanks for the replies, but none answered the specific question. So I'll change it round a bit. The question now is; If UKIP promised a referendum on Capital Punishment as part of their manifesto would it make you more or less likely to vote for them ? For me, it would make me more likely to vote for them, even tho I may vote against Capital Punishment, I'd like the chance to have my say. John
Sorry John, got sidetracked, as usual. ;) I'd be surprised now you mention it if it's not occurred to someone in UKIP already. Like GnV said at the minute we can't even have that kinda discussion because forbids capital punishment for signatories to it. No point in a referendum unless we withdraw from the Council of Europe, we couldn't implement it. It would be an excellent propaganda tool for them in the current climate, I'm sure they'll seek to exploit it. I would not be more likely to vote for them, in fact I would find the strategy even more cynical than usual, and would have even less respect for them for trying to make political capital of the murder this week when emotions are high and reasoned, balanced arguments hard to find amid some heavily polarised, overly emotive positions.
I know this is not specifically relevant to the original question, but puts across an interesting alternate viewpoint of the recent aweful events in Woolwich. It's certainly made me think that the politicisation of so-called terror crimes might not be the right response.
As far as this particular crime goes I think it says a great deal about the media and how the media shape our understanding of what constitutes news. Two or three weeks ago in Birmingham, a 75 year old grandfather was attacked and murdered by a machete wielding maniac. The man was walking home from the mosque and the white suspect was captured on CCTV fleeing the scene. The story barely made local news coverage whereas the equally awful murder of the Woolwich soldier made International news and was the main feature for almost a continuous 48 hours on sky news and bbc news. I am not trying to minimise the truly awful nature of either of these killings, simply pointing out how selective news media can be in their interpretation of what qualifies as news and it would seem that mainstream news may be about stirring outrage more than reporting news in an equal and unbiased way.
Quote by Too Hot As far as this particular crime goes I think it says a great deal about the media and how the media shape our understanding of what constitutes news. Two or three weeks ago in Birmingham, a 75 year old grandfather was attacked and murdered by a machete wielding maniac. The man was walking home from the mosque and the white suspect was captured on CCTV fleeing the scene. The story barely made local news coverage whereas the equally awful murder of the Woolwich soldier made International news and was the main feature for almost a continuous 48 hours on sky news and bbc news. I am not trying to minimise the truly awful nature of either of these killings, simply pointing out how selective news media can be in their interpretation of what qualifies as news and it would seem that mainstream news may be about stirring outrage more than reporting news in an equal and unbiased way.
Is this the murder you refer to?
there is no mention of a machete being used as the murder weapon and also it does not say that the white man seen on CCTV is a suspect fleeing from the scene. It says he was seen running near the scene of the attack around the time it happened. Are you being selective with the facts to suit your argument? As dreadful as the murder in Birmingham is, the totally brutal and barbaric nature of the murder of the young soldier, carried out in broad daylight in front of many eye witnesses makes the level of media coverage entirely justifiable IMHO. Unfortunately, this is what the perpetrators sought but I believe the sheer monstrosity of the crime made it impossible to not to have the level of media coverage it had.
Quote by flower411 As far as this particular crime goes I think it says a great deal about the media and how the media shape our understanding of what constitutes news. Two or three weeks ago in Birmingham, a 75 year old grandfather was attacked and murdered by a machete wielding maniac. The man was walking home from the mosque and the white suspect was captured on CCTV fleeing the scene. The story barely made local news coverage whereas the equally awful murder of the Woolwich soldier made International news and was the main feature for almost a continuous 48 hours on sky news and bbc news. I am not trying to minimise the truly awful nature of either of these killings, simply pointing out how selective news media can be in their interpretation of what qualifies as news and it would seem that mainstream news may be about stirring outrage more than reporting news in an equal and unbiased way.
Is this the murder you refer to?
there is no mention of a machete being used as the murder weapon and also it does not say that the white man seen on CCTV is a suspect fleeing from the scene. It says he was seen running near the scene of the attack around the time it happened. Are you being selective with the facts to suit your argument? . Interestingly enough, you can find the headline !!
Follow the Full Article link at the bottom of the article and you are back at the Guardian article in my post. No mention of a machete in the original article so who is being selective?
Quote by flower411 As far as this particular crime goes I think it says a great deal about the media and how the media shape our understanding of what constitutes news. Two or three weeks ago in Birmingham, a 75 year old grandfather was attacked and murdered by a machete wielding maniac. The man was walking home from the mosque and the white suspect was captured on CCTV fleeing the scene. The story barely made local news coverage whereas the equally awful murder of the Woolwich soldier made International news and was the main feature for almost a continuous 48 hours on sky news and bbc news. I am not trying to minimise the truly awful nature of either of these killings, simply pointing out how selective news media can be in their interpretation of what qualifies as news and it would seem that mainstream news may be about stirring outrage more than reporting news in an equal and unbiased way.
Is this the murder you refer to?
there is no mention of a machete being used as the murder weapon and also it does not say that the white man seen on CCTV is a suspect fleeing from the scene. It says he was seen running near the scene of the attack around the time it happened. Are you being selective with the facts to suit your argument? . Interestingly enough, you can find the headline !!
Follow the Full Article link at the bottom of the article and you are back at the Guardian article in my post.
Errmmm yeah !! That's why I made the point of saying it was just the headline ! Well there you go Flower. There's you agreeing with me and me looking for your hidden agenda!
Quote by Rogue_Trader The subject running on the video is clearly holding a machete.
Really?
It's certainly not clear in the picture in the link and I have not seen the word machete used in any articles I have read other than the dubious headlines to which Flower referred. Maybe you can provide a link which proves your claim?
Quote by Max777 The subject running on the video is clearly holding a machete.
Really?
It's certainly not clear in the picture in the link and I have not seen the word machete used in any articles I have read other than the dubious headlines to which Flower referred. Maybe you can provide a link which proves your claim?
Quote by Rogue_Trader The subject running on the video is clearly holding a machete.
Really?
It's certainly not clear in the picture in the link and I have not seen the word machete used in any articles I have read other than the dubious headlines to which Flower referred. Maybe you can provide a link which proves your claim?
If you can see that the man is clearly holing a machete, you have better eyesight than I have.
Quote by Max777 The subject running on the video is clearly holding a machete.
Really?
It's certainly not clear in the picture in the link and I have not seen the word machete used in any articles I have read other than the dubious headlines to which Flower referred. Maybe you can provide a link which proves your claim?
If you can see that the man is clearly holing a machete, you have better eyesight than I have. By all accounts R_T is twice your age Max. Given that people with short sightedness experience improvements in their vision over time (whilst the rest of us deteriorate with age) his vision must be near perfect by now
The lack of information about the death of Mohammed Saleem simply proves the point that a seemingly grotesque racist attack on an innocent 75 year I'd goes largely unreported albeit you can find details if you dig deep enough. The reporting on the equally hideous death of Lee Rigby has opened wounds in the British psyche that have been closed for decades and the hysterical media coverage is creating division where there need not be division. These two murderers were demented criminals and not representative of the Muslim community. By focusing the nations attention on the racial and religious aspect of this crime we are at risk of alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are fully integrated into our society and who have contributed greatly to our society. We need mainstream Islam to fight radical Islam - attacking Islam generally will not help.
Quote by Too Hot The lack of information about the death of Mohammed Saleem simply proves the point that a seemingly grotesque racist attack on an innocent 75 year I'd goes largely unreported albeit you can find details if you dig deep enough. The reporting on the equally hideous death of Lee Rigby has opened wounds in the British psyche that have been closed for decades and the hysterical media coverage is creating division where there need not be division. These two murderers were demented criminals and not representative of the Muslim community. By focusing the nations attention on the racial and religious aspect of this crime we are at risk of alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are fully integrated into our society and who have contributed greatly to our society. We need mainstream Islam to fight radical Islam - attacking Islam generally will not help.
Quote by Too Hot The lack of information about the death of Mohammed Saleem simply proves the point that a seemingly grotesque racist attack on an innocent 75 year I'd goes largely unreported albeit you can find details if you dig deep enough. The reporting on the equally hideous death of Lee Rigby has opened wounds in the British psyche that have been closed for decades and the hysterical media coverage is creating division where there need not be division. These two murderers were demented criminals and not representative of the Muslim community. By focusing the nations attention on the racial and religious aspect of this crime we are at risk of alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are fully integrated into our society and who have contributed greatly to our society. We need mainstream Islam to fight radical Islam - attacking Islam generally will not help.
Quote by Too Hot The lack of information about the death of Mohammed Saleem simply proves the point that a seemingly grotesque racist attack on an innocent 75 year I'd goes largely unreported albeit you can find details if you dig deep enough. The reporting on the equally hideous death of Lee Rigby has opened wounds in the British psyche that have been closed for decades and the hysterical media coverage is creating division where there need not be division. These two murderers were demented criminals and not representative of the Muslim community. By focusing the nations attention on the racial and religious aspect of this crime we are at risk of alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are fully integrated into our society and who have contributed greatly to our society. We need mainstream Islam to fight radical Islam - attacking Islam generally will not help.
Can't argue with that. John
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