Football Club enters administration

14 Feb 2012

Rangers Football Club has entered administration
It follows an unsuccessful legal bid by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) at the Court of Session in Edinburgh to appoint its own administrator at 14:50. The two parties are at loggerheads over a disputed tax bill and penalties of up to £49m.
HMRC believes the Ibrox club owes the cash over its use of Employment Benefit Trusts (EBTs) to pay staff over a 10-year period, it alleges the Ibrox club did not administer the scheme properly and underpaid tax. Rangers disputes this and has contested the claim in a first tier tax tribunal, which is due to report within weeks.
After the club signalled its intention to go into administration, owner Craig Whyte said the eventual tax liability facing Rangers could be as high as £75m - a sum it would be unable to pay. The chairman could opt to pursue the legal routes of receivership or pre-pack administration to avoid paying any tax liabilities. These routes would involve Rangers' assets being transferred to a new company or companies and the old club - formed in 1873 - being left behind with the unpayable debts. It would, almost inevitably, be wound up.
In these cases, HMRC, as an unsecured creditor, would receive very little if anything.
So even when people try and clamp down on Tax 'avoidance' it seems the 'guilty' can side step the issue, though no doubt if Rangers do re-emerge the club will have already been docked an immediate 10 points in the Scottish Premier League. Sadly with a circa £49m tax bill and penalties still means we, the tax payers, won't be getting what is owed.
Wonder how many other Clubs are at similar risk ?

14 Feb 2012

Quote by HnS
Wonder how many other Clubs are at similar risk ?

well portsmouth again apparently hns.
there are many i would think that are possibly on the brink, and maybe when one goes it could be like a pack of cards coming down.
i would say the premiership clubs are ok because of skys money, but the championship downwards is very different.
a shame but i think clubs like rangers with a ten point deduction will meen very little, seeing as there are only two clubs of any note in scotland.

14 Feb 2012

Let them all fall and then football may become for the masses again, and not the priveledged few
Dave_Notts

14 Feb 2012

Quote by Dave__Notts
Let them all fall and then football may become for the masses again, and not the priveledged few
Dave_Notts

if we do that mr notts then sky pulls out and no more money.
the masses as you call them watch football on sky. if it cost ten pounds to enter a premiership ground instead of the 40 pounds upwards it is now, how does that help the masses dunno

they can still only get a certain ammount in the grounds. sorry mr notts the maths just do not add up.
the masses would lose out as they could not watch the games on tv, top players would leave in big numbers and we would have a third rate football league. how does that help anyone except a few peeple who would be able to afford to go and watch there team?
the reeson rangers are in trouble is that scottish football has been in huge decline for yeers. there are two teams north of the border and to be fair they are both rubbish when you compare them with the top teems in england. is it any wonder they are now going into adminiostration?
we have the best league in the world attracting some of the best players. that only benefits the masses surely?

14 Feb 2012

Star,
Not just Rangers, Portsmouth as well from what you said
waiting for FIFA financial rules to 'kick in' and see how many others across Europe decline

14 Feb 2012

Quote by Dave__Notts
Let them all fall and then football may become for the masses again, and not the priveledged few
Dave_Notts

I concur.

14 Feb 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
Let them all fall and then football may become for the masses again, and not the priveledged few
Dave_Notts

if we do that mr notts then sky pulls out and no more money.
the masses as you call them watch football on sky. if it cost ten pounds to enter a premiership ground instead of the 40 pounds upwards it is now, how does that help the masses dunno

they can still only get a certain ammount in the grounds. sorry mr notts the maths just do not add up.
the masses would lose out as they could not watch the games on tv, top players would leave in big numbers and we would have a third rate football league. how does that help anyone except a few peeple who would be able to afford to go and watch there team?
the reeson rangers are in trouble is that scottish football has been in huge decline for yeers. there are two teams north of the border and to be fair they are both rubbish when you compare them with the top teems in england. is it any wonder they are now going into adminiostration?
we have the best league in the world attracting some of the best players. that only benefits the masses surely?
Who said anything about Sky pulling out?
I said if they can't afford it then they should fall.
As far as grass roots football and importing players, we'll differ on that. I don't like the way football is driving the wages up and importing overseas players instead of home grown talent.
Football is football and Scottish football is just as good as any other countries football. I watch Scottish, Welsh and English football (Never seen NI, football even though they have a league, as never been over there to watch and it is not televised.)
As for maths not adding up, look at Barcelona and Real Madrid who have very cheap tickets. So what you say is wrong.......it can pay and builds a fan base. Barca and Real know it and encourages it
Dave_Notts

14 Feb 2012

Quote by Dave__Notts
As for maths not adding up, look at Barcelona and Real Madrid who have very cheap tickets. So what you say is wrong.......it can pay and builds a fan base. Barca and Real know it and encourages it
Dave_Notts

cheap tickets mr notts?
the cheapest tickets i can see on average for either teem is abour 55 euros, which doing the conversation maths is about 55 english pounds. you think that is cheap? about on a par with the expensive teems in the english game.
check the general admission prices mr notts to watch a game at real madrid. you think that is cheap or on a par with top english team prices :thumbup:

a lot cheaper in the uk i think.

the cheapest ticket is 28 euros on the 4th tier at the south end at real madrid. you would not be able to make out the players from that far away. the most expensive are 135 euros.
very expensive when you compare it to english clubs mr notts

certainly not cheap in fact very expensive. but then to watch those teems with those players peeple realise there is a higher than average price to pay for that privilage :notes:

14 Feb 2012

Quote by Ben_Minx
Let them all fall and then football may become for the masses again, and not the priveledged few
Dave_Notts

I concur.
sorry but its against health and safety to have stands anymore so the prices will remain for the privileged few that can afford a seat, no longer will masses be able to attend football matches there just isn't room anymore !!:grin:

14 Feb 2012

The prices being paid for footballers and their wages today is shocking and has made regular trips to see the big teams almost impossible due to ticket prices!

14 Feb 2012

Quote by starlightcouple

As for maths not adding up, look at Barcelona and Real Madrid who have very cheap tickets. So what you say is wrong.......it can pay and builds a fan base. Barca and Real know it and encourages it
Dave_Notts

cheap tickets mr notts?
the cheapest tickets i can see on average for either teem is abour 55 euros, which doing the conversation maths is about 55 english pounds. you think that is cheap? about on a par with the expensive teems in the english game.
check the general admission prices mr notts to watch a game at real madrid. you think that is cheap or on a par with top english team prices :thumbup:

a lot cheaper in the uk i think.

the cheapest ticket is 28 euros on the 4th tier at the south end at real madrid. you would not be able to make out the players from that far away. the most expensive are 135 euros.
very expensive when you compare it to english clubs mr notts

certainly not cheap in fact very expensive. but then to watch those teems with those players peeple realise there is a higher than average price to pay for that privilage :notes:
Lots of ranting Star, but you failed to read your own links.
Seats at Real are as low as 24 euros (£20) and at Barca it can be 19 euros (£16), and kids are either free or a small price. If people want to see the Barca B then some games are free even to adults.
So is it on par with Premier sides? Not really, but that is why they encourage fans to attend and british football tries to screw as much as possible out of the public.
Dave_Notts

14 Feb 2012

Quote by Dave__Notts
Lots of ranting Star, but you failed to read your own links.
Seats at Real are as low as 24 euros (£20) and at Barca it can be 19 euros (£16), and kids are either free or a small price. If people want to see the Barca B then some games are free even to adults.
So is it on par with Premier sides? Not really, but that is why they encourage fans to attend and british football tries to screw as much as possible out of the public.
Dave_Notts

no ranting mr notts merely giving you the facts.
it seems you missed the links that i posted with regards to the costs in the uk.
i see you only mentioned the cheap seats but left out the many more expensive ones. i will leeve it up to others to see the links and work out for them selves the cost of seeing the cheap real madrid and barcelona.
what seeing the barcelona b teem for free has got to do with anything is baffling for me.:notes:
tell you what mr notts you manage to buy a good middle of the road seat at barcelonas games and i will promise to send you double the money that you pay for the 16 pound ticket.

14 Feb 2012

Quote by livelife_cpl
The prices being paid for footballers and their wages today is shocking and has made regular trips to see the big teams almost impossible due to ticket prices!

Quite. When I was a kid weekly pocket money was sufficient to fund travel to and from the game, match entry, a donkey burger and a programme. I would suggest this is no longer the case. Mind you the same has happened to live music. Its all a bit sad really.

15 Feb 2012

when you go a Premiership game, you are seeing athletes at the very top of their game. You get 2 hours worth of entertainment. The price varies but can be anything from £25 a game upwards.
If you go the theatre for 2 hours of entertainment in the west end to watch actors at the top of their game you pay £25 upwards.
Is there really that much differance !!! You pays your money and you takes your choice.
I know there is a call for a wage cap on players etc etc.....but for me, all i ask is that each club is run in a financially sound manor. the club should be made to make the books balance at the end of each season, or suffer a points deduction in the next season. In other words you can't spend what you don't have....we all know where this gets us ( Greece etc ) ... no club should be allowed to be in debt at the end of the season. Now if this means the owner has to dig in his pocket and put in a few million, then so be it. That would be fine, it happens in business, where directors put money into the company. The fact is last season, only two clubs balanced the books in the premiership. they were Blackpol and Wolves. Blackpool were relegated and Wolves survived by one point !!! The other clubs gambled on getting into debt, knowing if they stayed up, they would get £12 million next season off sky !! dangerous game if your gamble doesn't pay off....see portsmouth. Also noted that Birmingham have delayed posting their balance sheet for a month....a sure sign it will show them close to administration themselves !!
The biggest thing I dispise about the Rangers situation, is they go into administration, but carry on business. Some of the small business that supply them with goods or services, are owed money, they will not see, and as a consequence will actually fold !!

15 Feb 2012

Quote by deancannock
when you go a Premiership game, you are seeing athletes at the very top of their game. You get 2 hours worth of entertainment. The price varies but can be anything from £25 a game upwards.
If you go the theatre for 2 hours of entertainment in the west end to watch actors at the top of their game you pay £25 upwards.
Is there really that much differance !!! You pays your money and you takes your choice.

exactly dean. even if you made games a tenner a person, they can stil only fit in so many other peeple. then you have to take into account season ticket holders as well. that does not leeve a huge amount for the "masses ". sky has put a lot of money into our game and obviusly wants a nice return. they get that from subscribers to watch the football. if we take away all the great players from abroad would as many peeple subscribe? i think not. then sky would not put as much money into the game and then more clubs would fold. having a few thousand peeple paying a tenner a game would certainly do nothing for the club at all.

Quote by deancannock
I know there is a call for a wage cap on players etc etc.....but for me, all i ask is that each club is run in a financially sound manor. the club should be made to make the books balance at the end of each season, or suffer a points deduction in the next season. In other words you can't spend what you don't have....we all know where this gets us ( Greece etc ) ... no club should be allowed to be in debt at the end of the season. Now if this means the owner has to dig in his pocket and put in a few million, then so be it. That would be fine, it happens in business, where directors put money into the company. The fact is last season, only two clubs balanced the books in the premiership. they were Blackpol and Wolves. Blackpool were relegated and Wolves survived by one point !!! The other clubs gambled on getting into debt, knowing if they stayed up, they would get £12 million next season off sky !! dangerous game if your gamble doesn't pay off....see portsmouth. Also noted that Birmingham have delayed posting their balance sheet for a month....a sure sign it will show them close to administration themselves !!

yes dean have to agree. arsenal and spurs manage it and run within there budgets. arsenal though has won nothing for six yeers and spurs maybe longer than that. it seems you ether spend the money and win things or you spend very little and win nothing. i am not sure dean how clubs run but take say man city. if they were say 65 million pounds in debt at the end of the year surely the owners would just pay up? the trouble comes when the small clubs try and do it and then do not have the meens to pay that money. so do we curb the rich clubs to benefit the less rich, or let the rich clubs keep spending and then watch the small clubs fold? both are unfair to the other dean, but i think i would rather see 20 clubs as it is now, than 10 clubs which are the richest ones. a difficult decision and it can depend on what club you support sometimes as to what your attitude is.

Quote by deancannock
The biggest thing I dispise about the Rangers situation, is they go into administration, but carry on business. Some of the small business that supply them with goods or services, are owed money, they will not see, and as a consequence will actually fold !!

agree 100% dean. that is why they have done this. to get rid of a lot of the debt. a small company would not be able to do this and they would just be forced into bankruptsy. like portsmouth and west ham who owed millions of pounds with very few assets. a normal company would never be allowed this ease on paying there taxes. why are football teams any different?
yes i feel sorry for the small businesses that will probably fold because of this, and the taxman will not show them the same caring attitude as they will with a football team like rangers.

15 Feb 2012

And back to the original point, spotted several snippets
(1) The SPL champions took the step to go into administration over an unpaid tax bill of £9m, accrued since Craig Whyte bought the club in May last year.
(2) Following Tuesday morning's legal case, a spokesman for HMRC said: "We can't discuss specific cases for legal reasons but tax that has been deducted at source from the wages of players and support staff such as ground keepers and physios, must be paid over to HMRC"
"Any business that fails to meet that basic legal requirement puts the survival of the business at risk."
(3) Reported last week that the chairman had also borrowed up to £24m against four years of future season ticket revenue from Ticketus.
(4) Paul Clark and David Whitehouse from Duff and Phelps (joint administrators) plan to get out of administration by CVA process as quickly as we possibly can. However, if HMRC holds 25% or more of the club's debt it can block a creditors agreement which is necessary for Rangers to exit administration. If a creditors agreement cannot be reached - and if the club cannot be sold - it is possible that Rangers could be wound up.
Waits with interest to see what happens and whether this starts a domino effect across this 'sport'.

15 Feb 2012

The tax dodge (EBT's) have been used extensively in the Premier League so hold on to your hats as HMRC starts to roll out back tax demands to a Club near you.
Looks like Labour are going after high earners in big business and HMRC are going after the footballers earning so much that they can almost avoid paying tax altogether. Shame that it will be the Clubs and not the mercenaries who will suffer.

15 Feb 2012

Quote by Too Hot
The tax dodge (EBT's) have been used extensively in the Premier League so hold on to your hats as HMRC starts to roll out back tax demands to a Club near you.
Looks like Labour are going after high earners in big business and HMRC are going after the footballers earning so much that they can almost avoid paying tax altogether. Shame that it will be the Clubs and not the mercenaries who will suffer.

Too Hot,
About time Tax dodging was clamped down on more and don't care whether it's a company, footballer, investment banker, etc. so long as it's investigated and where a debt is owed, the money is collected.
Now that there's a 'new broom' in charge of HMRC who, hopefully, won't be signing off reduced tax liabilities over a drink and a handshake then.
As The Public Accounts Committee said in December last year they believed there was £25bn of outstanding tax potentially owed by big companies .
By the way it's not just Rangers, on 7th Feb this year it was reported Heart of Midlothian Football Club was facing fresh court action over unpaid tax. HMRC had given the Edinburgh club eight days to pay a tax bill or face liquidation. It is the fifth time in recent years that the club has faced legal action over unpaid tax. Late last year, Hearts was forced to pay about £500,000 to ward off a winding-up order over an outstanding tax bill. The club had similar winding up orders served against it in 2009 and November 2010 over unpaid tax to HMRC.
It's also interesting to note that, according to Tax Research UK, UEFA (European soccer ruling body) back in January asked UK Authorities to investigate 2 UK registered companies involved with player transfers, suggesting a high possibility of money laundering being involved.

15 Feb 2012

Quote by Ben_Minx
When I was a kid weekly pocket money was sufficient to fund travel to and from the game, match entry, a donkey burger and a programme. I would suggest this is no longer the case. Mind you the same has happened to live music. Its all a bit sad really.

Agreed.
Which is one of the reasons we now live in France.
Live concerts, firework displays numerous forms of entertainment and incredible rugby in a small ville near you throughout the year mostly paid for by the local commune out of local taxation which currently stands at about the cost of one month's worth of local taxation in the UK for the whole year.
Even less if you're a pensioner wink

(not forgetting that France still has 60 as pension age - at the moment).

15 Feb 2012

Quote by deancannock
when you go a Premiership game, you are seeing athletes at the very top of their game. You get 2 hours worth of entertainment. The price varies but can be anything from £25 a game upwards.
If you go the theatre for 2 hours of entertainment in the west end to watch actors at the top of their game you pay £25 upwards.
Is there really that much differance !!!

Yes, one huge difference. The wages paid to the 'players'.

15 Feb 2012

Quote by foxylady2209
Yes, one huge difference. The wages paid to the 'players'.

ok foxy where would you like the money generated by the club to go?
the players are the ones that bring the supporters through the gates. the players are the ones that bring in huge sponsership deals, which in turn brings in massive amounts of cash.
if you do not pay the players high wages then what? the better players will go to the clubs that will pay the money.
if the players were paid the national wage and the money was still the same coming in, where would all that money go? to the owner is where and there are many that would say any one person earning that amount is awful. i would have thought many on here would have been happy with spreading the wealth around? lol

bruce willis had the right idea when making the die hard films. the first two he made he just got a flat fee. yes that fee for the second film was nine million dollars apparentley, but on the third film he also wanted a cut of the box office money. for die hard three there were rumours he got 23 million dollars.
the moral of this story is no bruce willis then no more die hard films. it was he that made those films gross huge amounts. the same with a football club. no decent players then no decent return. no decent sponsors. the players make the club so why should they not share in the vast amounts of money a premier club makes dunno

seams sensible and fare to me. wave

16 Feb 2012

Quote by starlightcouple

Yes, one huge difference. The wages paid to the 'players'.

ok foxy where would you like the money generated by the club to go?
the players are the ones that bring the supporters through the gates. the players are the ones that bring in huge sponsership deals, which in turn brings in massive amounts of cash.
if you do not pay the players high wages then what? the better players will go to the clubs that will pay the money.
if the players were paid the national wage and the money was still the same coming in, where would all that money go? to the owner is where and there are many that would say any one person earning that amount is awful. i would have thought many on here would have been happy with spreading the wealth around? lol

bruce willis had the right idea when making the die hard films. the first two he made he just got a flat fee. yes that fee for the second film was nine million dollars apparentley, but on the third film he also wanted a cut of the box office money. for die hard three there were rumours he got 23 million dollars.
the moral of this story is no bruce willis then no more die hard films. it was he that made those films gross huge amounts. the same with a football club. no decent players then no decent return. no decent sponsors. the players make the club so why should they not share in the vast amounts of money a premier club makes dunno

seams sensible and fare to me. wave

Basic wage, then a success bonus seems to work for Investment Bankers who are on less than most Premiership footballers

16 Feb 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
no ranting mr notts merely giving you the facts.
it seems you missed the links that i posted with regards to the costs in the uk.
i see you only mentioned the cheap seats but left out the many more expensive ones. i will leeve it up to others to see the links and work out for them selves the cost of seeing the cheap real madrid and barcelona.
what seeing the barcelona b teem for free has got to do with anything is baffling for me.:notes:
tell you what mr notts you manage to buy a good middle of the road seat at barcelonas games and i will promise to send you double the money that you pay for the 16 pound ticket.

Yes star, that was the point in what I said. Why would I mention directors boxes or the dearer seats when I was stating these two clubs sell cheap seats to get bums on seats for future supporters.
Barca B are the up and coming stars of the future. So people can get in free to see them
£16 pound will get me a seat in the stadium. I would be able to see the match and get the view I paid for. Your comparisson is silly. It is like saying if you pay a thousand for a car it won't be a new BMW..........erm no shit Sherlock, it is a £16 pound ticket in the stadium so you'll get a £16 view..........but you are there at the match.
Dave_Notts

16 Feb 2012

Going on previous seasons, Rangers income for the nine months Mr Whyte has been in charge should be about £26m.
It has also been reported that he borrowed about £24m from Ticketus against a share of season ticket sales for the next four years.
The club is also said to have received about £5m for the sale of top goalscorer Nikica Jelavi? to Everton in the January transfer window.
The combined total of these figures is £55m.
Mr Whyte has publicly stated that the monthly cost of running Rangers is about
Based on this figure, the cost of running the club during Mr Whyte's tenure would have been about £34m.
In theory, that should leave a surplus of £21m.
If the £9m figure claimed by HMRC over alleged unpaid VAT and PAYE is added, then the surplus cash figure would stand at £30m.

16 Feb 2012

Quote by Dave__Notts
Yes star, that was the point in what I said. Why would I mention directors boxes or the dearer seats when I was stating these two clubs sell cheap seats to get bums on seats for future supporters.

yes why would you mention those at all mr notts. would kinda prove my point if you had

Quote by Dave__Notts
Barca B are the up and coming stars of the future. So people can get in free to see them

are they

the up and coming stars :dunno: check the specatator figures if you can mr notts for attendance to these games. i think many peeple would prefere to see the reel stars and not the ones that could be future stars.

Quote by Dave__Notts
£16 pound will get me a seat in the stadium. I would be able to see the match and get the view I paid for. Your comparisson is silly. It is like saying if you pay a thousand for a car it won't be a new BMW..........erm no shit Sherlock, it is a £16 pound ticket in the stadium so you'll get a £16 view..........but you are there at the match.

yes mr notts i am sure that 16 pounds would get you a ticket for a stadium tour at wembley, but hardly the same as going to watch a first teem match is it.
your insinuation was not what you are saying now mr notts. the insinuation was that you could go and watch a match at barca or real and get cheep tickets. i presumed you was talking first teem matches, but now it seems you are talking about second rate b teem games. not the same.
yes what you are now saying is true. peeple can go and see real madrid on a tuesday evening at ten to see the b teem play Racing Santander for 16 pounds, if they would like.
right i am sure the stadium will be packed with peeple who are now saying this is great, this is for the masses. of course it is. without them charging the cheep prices nobody would bother to turn up. even now not many peeple do to a b teem game of no worth.
i have proved mr notts that going to watch a A teem game at barcelona or real madrid's grounds, are the same cost wise as going to watch chelsea or man utd over here. in fact man utd is a lot cheeper if you check the prices.

16 Feb 2012

£16 gets you into an A game. That is a cheap seat to view Barca. Can Man Utd, Man City get anywhere near that?
Smoke and mirrors do not get away from the fact that Barca has cheap seats for "A" games. Where do I get the proof for that............once again your own links.
Dave_Notts

16 Feb 2012

:laughabove::laughabove:
smoke and mirrors indeed mr notts. indeed.
well man utd can get even cheeper mr notts.

there you go mr notts 14 quid. flipa

16 Feb 2012

:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
This is getting funnier by the minute.
You posted up the link to the Barca tickets that lets an Adult get into an "A" league game for £16.
Then to prove British football is cheaper you popped up the price for a Man Utd cup game and pointed at the OAPs and under 18 price lol

If you look at your own link an adult is £28. Priceless :lol:
Dave_Notts

16 Feb 2012

Quote by Dave__Notts
:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
This is getting funnier by the minute.
You posted up the link to the Barca tickets that lets an Adult get into an "A" league game for £16.
Then to prove British football is cheaper you popped up the price for a Man Utd cup game and pointed at the OAPs and under 18 price If you look at your own link an adult is £28. Priceless :lol:
Dave_Notts

missing the relevance.
i have posted that a person can get into a first teem match at man utd for 14 pounds. what has the age of that person got to do with anything?
are we now only talking adults mr notts then? do OAPs not count as adults now then as the same as tiger woods is not a sportsperson. innocent

you cannot change things mr notts half way through a debate just to suit your own purpose. i see this a lot on this forum. hilarious it reely is :giggle:

16 Feb 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
:rotflmao: :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
This is getting funnier by the minute.
You posted up the link to the Barca tickets that lets an Adult get into an "A" league game for £16.
Then to prove British football is cheaper you popped up the price for a Man Utd cup game and pointed at the OAPs and under 18 price If you look at your own link an adult is £28. Priceless :lol:
Dave_Notts

missing the relevance.
i have posted that a person can get into a first teem match at man utd for 14 pounds. what has the age of that person got to do with anything?
are we now only talking adults mr notts then? do OAPs not count as adults now then as the same as tiger woods is not a sportsperson. innocent

you cannot change things mr notts half way through a debate just to suit your own purpose. i see this a lot on this forum. hilarious it reely is :giggle:
Oh it gets better :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
Comparison of like for like Star. An OAP and under 18 gets concessionary prices.
I'll make it simpler. An adult to get into a Barca game costs £16. An adult to get into a Man Utd game costs £28. Which one is cheaper? dunno

Dave_Notts