ok then.. who's going to give The Café forumites a heads-up on what this is all about? Didn't a certain Mr Bliar leave British politics to go sort out the Middle East? or is that why there is a problem there now?
If the Cafe forumites are concerned about this issue, I'm sure they can read about it on a news website and make up their own minds. Why do we need someone to give us a 'heads up'?
Quote by noladreams30 If the Cafe forumites are concerned about this issue, I'm sure they can read about it on a news website and make up their own minds. Why do we need someone to give us a 'heads up'?
Because this place has so many well-read members who can be relied on to give educated and well reasoned information (as opposed to reading crap from the daily comics) that's why :thumbup:
Quote by GnV If the Cafe forumites are concerned about this issue, I'm sure they can read about it on a news website and make up their own minds. Why do we need someone to give us a 'heads up'?
Because this place has so many well-read members who can be relied on to give educated and well reasoned information (as opposed to reading crap from the daily comics) that's why :thumbup: Really? have you read some of the threads recently?
Quote by foxylady2209 If the Cafe forumites are concerned about this issue, I'm sure they can read about it on a news website and make up their own minds. Why do we need someone to give us a 'heads up'?
Because this place has so many well-read members who can be relied on to give educated and well reasoned information (as opposed to reading crap from the daily comics) that's why :thumbup: Really? have you read some of the threads recently? I have, thank you.
Quote by foxylady2209 If the Cafe forumites are concerned about this issue, I'm sure they can read about it on a news website and make up their own minds. Why do we need someone to give us a 'heads up'?
Because this place has so many well-read members who can be relied on to give educated and well reasoned information (as opposed to reading crap from the daily comics) that's why :thumbup: Really? have you read some of the threads recently? Thankfully that is YOUR opinion. Thankfully others do not hold that view.
Quote by noladreams30 If the Cafe forumites are concerned about this issue, I'm sure they can read about it on a news website and make up their own minds. Why do we need someone to give us a 'heads up'?
Because its another opportunity to knock the political system in this country
Quote by GnV ok then.. who's going to give The Café forumites a heads-up on what this is all about? Didn't a certain Mr Bliar leave British politics to go sort out the Middle East? or is that why there is a problem there now?
He did indeed, but only because he fucked up this country so much, he thought he would see if he could make matters worse in the Middle East.....delusional! The Middle East is a problem that will never go away. It goes quite for a while then kicks up again. There are no winners only losers. Israel have the might and the power, and the Palestinians have the rights. The only winner will be Iran, who with the Middle East problems getting worse, will have the attention pulled away from their nuclear programme. The losers are as always the innocents, who are caught up in the crossfire...nothing changes there then. Both sides are wrong, and both sides are right. How can a peaceful resolution ever be sought there? Certainly not by the war mongrel Blair...what a bloody hypocrit.
Arab/Israeli stuff hmmmm the most complicated unfathomable arguement in the world with pigheadedness on both sides. What I do believe, and it is awful is that at the moment the status quo is held up by the and occasional skirmish on both sides. If there was to be a serious effort by either side to rid themselves of the other then all literally holy hell would break out. I believe that at present and for the foreseeable future the way it is in israel now is probably the best and safest we can hope for. Awful but it is how I see it.
I suppose it all depends on which way you view it. Both sides are being used imho, Israel as a buffer against the more fundamentalist Islamic states and the Palestinians as tools to attempt to bring to reality parts of a certain fundamentalist regimes policy. Short of an all out Israeli ground attack, I don't think it will ever stop, nor will it ever be solved by Israel pulling back as per the various UN resolutions. I don't think the international community has the stomach to allow Israel off the leash without serious sanctions again, nor do they have the influence to bring the Palestinians back into the roadmap..... Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the whole area went up in flames though.
Quote by Steve If the Cafe forumites are concerned about this issue, I'm sure they can read about it on a news website and make up their own minds. Why do we need someone to give us a 'heads up'?
Because its another opportunity to knock the political system in this country You might think that, you are even entitled to post it which I respect but it doesn't make you right. It seems you may have a problem with other people having an alternate view to yours. I can recommend a good shrink if you need one :lol2: Anyway, what has the political system in UK got to do with the situation in the Middle East, or did I miss something :dunno:
Quote by kentswingers777 Snip... The Middle East is a problem that will never go away. It goes quite for a while then kicks up again. There are no winners only losers. Israel have the might and the power, and the Palestinians have the rights. The only winner will be Iran, who with the Middle East problems getting worse, will have the attention pulled away from their nuclear programme.
Interesting point there T7 :thumbup: Does anyone have a view on the fact that as the Americans are leaderless (as good as) at the moment as GWB is using up all his mental resources packing his toothbrush that the Israeli's have taken advantage of the timing?
What is Israel to do? Hamas launched sixty rockets into Southern Israel, killing many. Are they just to stand by and let it happen? Israel are a country that does not take any shit....why should it? I feel that at times they could so easily send in their troops and their planes and flatten Palestine, but they don't. The plane and the tanks are far more mighty than the sword. The hatred will never go away, and this weeks bombs will only increase that hatred. Hamas deliberatly fire rockets from crowded civilian areas, areas where Israel will not normally fire back into. Hamas know that, which to my mind makes them cowards. I think many times Israel are way too tolerent.
Quote by GnV Does anyone have a view on the fact that as the Americans are leaderless (as good as) at the moment as GWB is using up all his mental resources packing his toothbrush that the Israeli's have taken advantage of the timing?
Don't believe it matters a damn, the hawks and the so called 'Jewish' lobby in the U.S. would ensure that no matter what Israel does, although publically they may call for restraint and appear concerned over the events in the region, behind the scenes the flow of funding and technology won't stop. Imho it's very much a cold war scenario, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'
I accept that some people have genuine humanitarian concern for the Palestinians but in some cases it is just old-fashioned anti-semitism dressed up as something respectable.
Quote by GnV If the Cafe forumites are concerned about this issue, I'm sure they can read about it on a news website and make up their own minds. Why do we need someone to give us a 'heads up'?
Because its another opportunity to knock the political system in this country You might think that, you are even entitled to post it which I respect but it doesn't make you right. It seems you may have a problem with other people having an alternate view to yours. I can recommend a good shrink if you need one :lol2: Anyway, what has the political system in UK got to do with the situation in the Middle East, or did I miss something :dunno: I find that about as far from funny as it gets
Quote by kentswingers777 Hamas deliberatly fire rockets from crowded civilian areas, areas where Israel will not normally fire back into. Hamas know that, which to my mind makes them cowards.
And those that fight others that are stronger and have the weapons that they do not are stupid. When you are weaker in arms in a conflict you have to do whatever you can to gain an advantage. So to some Hamas are terrorists.........to others they are freedom fighters. They are only doing what the French Resistance done to the Germans in WWII. To me the resistance were heroes and freedom fighters......to the Germans they were terrorists and dealt with them accordingly Dave_Notts
I guess that between the Ancient Egyptians, the Macedonians, the Romans, The Saracens, The Crusaders, The Turks, the germans, and of course the British, the whole area has been a mixed up battlefield for over 2000 years. Nothing much changes !!
Quote by Dave__Notts Hamas deliberatly fire rockets from crowded civilian areas, areas where Israel will not normally fire back into. Hamas know that, which to my mind makes them cowards.
And those that fight others that are stronger and have the weapons that they do not are stupid. When you are weaker in arms in a conflict you have to do whatever you can to gain an advantage. So to some Hamas are terrorists.........to others they are freedom fighters. They are only doing what the French Resistance done to the Germans in WWII. To me the resistance were heroes and freedom fighters......to the Germans they were terrorists and dealt with them accordingly Dave_Notts So out of pure interest Dave.... if you was in charge of Israel and your neighbour was launching rockets into your country, killing your people, or sending suicide bombers in to kill innocent people.....how would YOU react? Offer to shake their hands? Offer them a peace which they will never except? Move out of Israel? Or give them free tickets to a Tel Aviv cinema? I would be interested to know how you would deal with such extreme aggression. For me Israel have been a tad lenient, put about by pressure from countries outside. This though is a message that they have had enough. They need their weapons to protect itself, I don't agree with what is going on but....terrorists for which I think Hamas are, need to know they cannot hide behind civilians to launch attacks on other innocents. People are now blaming Israel for being " over sensitive "..my arse. They are doing what they need to do to PROTECT their own citizens from mortar attacks on a daily basis.
:laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: I answered the quoted bit on "cowards" and why these people launch from civilian living areas. I quoted it and explained my thinking. What you have asked is something completely different and nothing that I have commented on as yet. My thoughts on what could happen is below. If you are quoting me then give me a chance and keep it to what I have posted I look at this area and equate it to Northern Ireland. There was going to be only two ways for NI to finish. One way was explained by an old man who spoke of the troubles. He said that NI was part of a democatic society and one day the Catholics would outnumber the Protestants and they would vote in unification. The second would be that all the terrorist groups ceasefire, the army pull out and politics would come to the fore. History shows that the second way has succeeded. This is similar to this region and peace has to be given a chance. To retaliate and bomb and kill innocents will never stop the problem. It will just breed more who would want to kill. The only way that war solves a problem is when Gengis Kahn just wiped out everybody and brought new people in to inhabit the area. Then you have no problem with upset originals. However, when there are two sets of people then they have to sort it out politically. Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: I answered the quoted bit on "cowards" and why these people launch from civilian living areas. I quoted it and explained my thinking. What you have asked is something completely different and nothing that I have commented on as yet. My thoughts on what could happen is below. If you are quoting me then give me a chance and keep it to what I have posted I look at this area and equate it to Northern Ireland. There was going to be only two ways for NI to finish. One way was explained by an old man who spoke of the troubles. He said that NI was part of a democatic society and one day the Catholics would outnumber the Protestants and they would vote in unification. The second would be that all the terrorist groups ceasefire, the army pull out and politics would come to the fore. History shows that the second way has succeeded. This is similar to this region and peace has to be given a chance. To retaliate and bomb and kill innocents will never stop the problem. It will just breed more who would want to kill. The only way that war solves a problem is when Gengis Kahn just wiped out everybody and brought new people in to inhabit the area. Then you have no problem with upset originals. However, when there are two sets of people then they have to sort it out politically. Dave_Notts
I was just asking a question which you have answered. So what IF a peace soloution can never be found, which I think it cannot...what then? Jews hate Arabs, and Arabs hate the Jews, that will never ever change. I can never see a politcal solution to this. Israel sees the only way is not to use kid gloves, but come down hard on their enemies. Not a solution but a need which they want to excersise. From what I know an option which under immense provocation, they are entitled to do. We are all allowed to protect ourselves.
I tried to keep out of this thread ....its complexities are massive . Who's going to be the first one to take it back to the bible ? Who is in the right ...I honestly don't know, I don't know the history well enough and I suspect I am not alone. It does seem to me that Israel undermines it's arguments by occupying territory that does not belong to it. It also controls supplies to areas it doesn't occupy and creates appalling conditions for the shoots unarmed British journalists and it responds in totally disproportional ways . Examine how many palestinians have been killed in the last 10 years or so against how many Israeli's Of course all deaths in this region are a tragedy and inevitably it is the innocent who suffer most(Israeli and Palestinian) The Palestinians need to organise themselves politically as a far more cogent and credible regional force. They should prove themselves capable of authority and of keeping ceasefires which sadly they haven't. There are United Nations Resolutions requiring Israel to evacuate the occupied territories. Their are numerous international calls for Israel to moderate it's response to the latest rocket attacks. Hamas should seize the moral high ground and stop aggravating the situation by it's nasty and cowardly use of rocket attacks .
Quote by kentswingers777 I was just asking a question which you have answered. You asked a question that had nothing to do with my post So what IF a peace soloution can never be found, which I think it cannot...what then? If they can not then nothing will happen but carry on as it is.............or genocide occurs. One of the two really Jews hate Arabs, and Arabs hate the Jews, that will never ever change. Some Jews hate Arabs and some Arabs hate Jews but not all. There are moderate parties across the political spectrum in that region, and they have tried damn hard to sort this out and they will for the foreseeable future I can never see a politcal solution to this. That is very negative. But there again some people did not see a solution to Japan, Germany, Bosnia, Serbia, Northern Ireland or South Africa........but luckily for mankind we have people that can see through the troubles Israel sees the only way is not to use kid gloves, but come down hard on their enemies. Then they will sow what they reap. Just don't cry about it afterwards Not a solution but a need which they want to excersise. It is no solution, you are right on that.......and one they will have to live and die with From what I know an option which under immense provocation, they are entitled to do. Any country is entitled to defend itself. It is how they "protect" themselves is how history will judge them. We are all allowed to protect ourselves. With reasonable force :wink:
Some very interesting comment! Thank you. I like the bit about the David and Goliath theory; Isn't this what Saddam (David) did when he launched attacks against Israel (Goliath)? Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction but Saddam was a master of deception - he had to be to control what was almost uncontrollable. Are Hammas taking a similar battle strategy?
This subject is a long and drawn out one which i don't believe there is anyone on this site qualified enough to give an educated answer. From what i've read in the comments the reply's are mainly based on opinions and new's reports and not fact. I did start to type a response going into a lot of detail and facts as i had to cover this topic to get my promotion, however, it was going to be a 10 page essay, lol, so i decided not to. To sum up: -It's iran's inalienable right to research nuclear power as a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. -Iran complied with UN weapon's inspectors who reported back there was no evidance of such a program. -Only recently (2003) did Iran restart their enrichment program against UN dirction. Only because the USA PRESSURED certain country's to insist on another inspection (Russia and China (basicaly got blackmailed which came from statements from an ex USA official)). -Israel only recently joined the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty and still will not confirm how many nuclear weapons they have and it is still believed they are still aquiring them (allthough this is not fact as far as i know). -Palastine was split into 2 nations in 1947 by the UN. (Im sure the americans would be happy if the UN renamed Texas and stated it would now be a muslim state as i doubt any other country would) -I very much doubt that Israel would carry out a full invasion of Palastine as one thread put, as this would create outrage amongst ALL muslim states and muslim's. This would no doubt call for UN intervention. No doubt causing WW3 as most country's are allied in some way or another! (Not an exageration) -Yes the indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palastine is not accepatble, however, Israel has carried out attacks just as devastating. Like one thread said each side believes their right so how can it ever be resolved? That was just a couple of the points i started covering and each one would take pages to cover. I now need a wee so that'll do for now
Quote by flower411 This subject is a long and drawn out one which i don't believe there is anyone on this site qualified enough to give an educated answer.
Blimey !!!! I`m the first to start whining when people attack new posters...but FFS !!! Who the hell are you to make a comment like that ?? :shock: Back in my box now !! wow calm down. All im saying is it's a very deep subject which i had to research and i still only scrathed the surface! Most people rely on what they see in the papers or on the news which is massively driven by spin doctors within governments. Im by no way saying that all people on this site are thick! Far from it. All im saying is the middle east is subject which is very very deep. And as for who do i think i am im someone who's done several tours in the middle east and know a little on the subject. (i really do mean a little, like i said it's very deep)
Quote by flower411 This subject is a long and drawn out one which i don't believe there is anyone on this site qualified enough to give an educated answer.
Blimey !!!! I`m the first to start whining when people attack new posters...but FFS !!! Who the hell are you to make a comment like that ?? :shock: Back in my box now !! No, no ,no.......get back out of the box. This made me think "Bloody hell." But I had to bite my typing fingers and think what he did say and how I should reply to that. What came to my mind is that anyone who is qualified enough to give an educated answer would still only be giving an opinion and not fact. This opinion would be formed from the "facts" that others have given to the qualified one. So if those giving the qualified one the "facts" are not qualified, then the "facts" are not reliable.........or are they? Dave_Notts PS :welcome: to the forums :D
Quote by Chris-1977 This subject is a long and drawn out one which i don't believe there is anyone on this site qualified enough to give an educated answer. From what i've read in the comments the reply's are mainly based on opinions and new's reports and not fact. I did start to type a response going into a lot of detail and facts as i had to cover this topic to get my promotion, however, it was going to be a 10 page essay, lol, so i decided not to. To sum up: -It's iran's inalienable right to research nuclear power as a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. -Iran complied with UN weapon's inspectors who reported back there was no evidance of such a program. -Only recently (2003) did Iran restart their enrichment program against UN dirction. Only because the USA PRESSURED certain country's to insist on another inspection (Russia and China (basicaly got blackmailed which came from statements from an ex USA official)). -Israel only recently joined the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty and still will not confirm how many nuclear weapons they have and it is still believed they are still aquiring them (allthough this is not fact as far as i know). -Palastine was split into 2 nations in 1947 by the UN. (Im sure the americans would be happy if the UN renamed Texas and stated it would now be a muslim state as i doubt any other country would) -I very much doubt that Israel would carry out a full invasion of Palastine as one thread put, as this would create outrage amongst ALL muslim states and muslim's. This would no doubt call for UN intervention. No doubt causing WW3 as most country's are allied in some way or another! (Not an exageration) -Yes the indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palastine is not accepatble, however, Israel has carried out attacks just as devastating. Like one thread said each side believes their right so how can it ever be resolved? That was just a couple of the points i started covering and each one would take pages to cover. I now need a wee so that'll do for now
Sorry to snipe your post but...you clearly stated your opinion of others posts, which are highlighted in red, but the ones in blue, seem to be YOUR opinions, and not facts. Seems like a double edged sword there to me. Yes other posters have made comments and some may not be factual, but then again a lot of yours was not either. Bottom line is Israel was given land by people who had NO right to give it, or take it. Palestine obviously will never except that Israel are entitled to that land, or to live there. It is like somebody taking your car from you, and giving it to somebody else. Then everytime you try and take your car back, that person beats you up, as he is bigger and stronger than you. I would think that would give most people the hump. The problem would never be resolved unless you got your car back, and the thief was arrested and jailed. A weird summary but that to me is exactly what has happened to Palestine, and going by that will never give in to Israel no matter what the cost is to them.... Fact...... The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.
Quote by kentswingers777 This subject is a long and drawn out one which i don't believe there is anyone on this site qualified enough to give an educated answer. From what i've read in the comments the reply's are mainly based on opinions and new's reports and not fact. I did start to type a response going into a lot of detail and facts as i had to cover this topic to get my promotion, however, it was going to be a 10 page essay, lol, so i decided not to. To sum up: -It's iran's inalienable right to research nuclear power as a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. -Iran complied with UN weapon's inspectors who reported back there was no evidance of such a program. -Only recently (2003) did Iran restart their enrichment program against UN dirction. Only because the USA PRESSURED certain country's to insist on another inspection (Russia and China (basicaly got blackmailed which came from statements from an ex USA official)). -Israel only recently joined the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty and still will not confirm how many nuclear weapons they have and it is still believed they are still aquiring them (allthough this is not fact as far as i know). -Palastine was split into 2 nations in 1947 by the UN. (Im sure the americans would be happy if the UN renamed Texas and stated it would now be a muslim state as i doubt any other country would) -I very much doubt that Israel would carry out a full invasion of Palastine as one thread put, as this would create outrage amongst ALL muslim states and muslim's. This would no doubt call for UN intervention. No doubt causing WW3 as most country's are allied in some way or another! (Not an exageration) -Yes the indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palastine is not accepatble, however, Israel has carried out attacks just as devastating. Like one thread said each side believes their right so how can it ever be resolved? That was just a couple of the points i started covering and each one would take pages to cover. I now need a wee so that'll do for now
Sorry to snipe your post but...you clearly stated your opinion of others posts, which are highlighted in red, but the ones in blue, seem to be YOUR opinions, and not facts. Seems like a double edged sword there to me. Yes other posters have made comments and some may not be factual, but then again a lot of yours was not either. Bottom line is Israel was given land by people who had NO right to give it, or take it. Palestine obviously will never except that Israel are entitled to that land, or to live there. It is like somebody taking your car from you, and giving it to somebody else. Then everytime you try and take your car back, that person beats you up, as he is bigger and stronger than you. I would think that would give most people the hump. The problem would never be resolved unless you got your car back, and the thief was arrested and jailed. A weird summary but that to me is exactly what has happened to Palestine, and going by that will never give in to Israel no matter what the cost is to them.... Yes i can't argue with that. The point i was making about a US state being changed was just to hightlight the fact that land that did not belong to the UN was given to someone else which you have explained a lot better than i did :D As for the the comment on WW3 that is not my opinion but the general concensus of people a lot higher and better educated than i am :grin
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