I don't know the price of everything.
Quote by GnV
You have to remember that awayman is an expert...
he also knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
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minium of five years?
Quote by Kaznkev
Erm we discussing children here?
strangely ben i think we are,but the laws on not naming children seem to only be guidlines in some peoples be broken when there purient interest is arroused.
the quality of mercy is not strained.
should we not be judged on how we treat the damaged in our society?
you are of coarse correct, and it sounds much like some thing my Mum would have said, but my problem is the damaged wanted to damage others, and if that was aloud to continue eventually we would all be damaged, or is that daft?
not daft at all blue,these children may never be safe to release,and to protect society may need to be in custody for a very long time,but our attitude towards them and our reasons for incarcerating them show our values.
Im kinda worried by the fact i remind you of your mum tho!
Before I answer that, would you care to explain a bit better what you mean by that comment?
There needs to be a system whereby offenders are either suitably punished and/or given some level of rehabilitation. But there are also needs to be a lot less of the nanny state assuming they know what is best for people. And that is the majority of the population not just offenders.
Within the last few decades the intervention of modern social and scientific practices and the various powers of authorities has left many of the population confused about their own values and feelings. This is as a result of nearly all the arguments and theories that are there to represent and/or support the supposedly good work of people who are enjoying full time employment in such related occupations.
But it has become a profession and an industry, and a profitable one at that. Not only for people working directly in the profession, but the many other aspects of industry which are more closely related to entertainment. Media such as books, films and television derive a substantial and sustained benefit from the unfortunate consequences of people's lives.
Fighting evil is an age old war. Which people can protect themselves from. People have been able to protect themselves and their families from evil by using prejudice and discrimination. Its not fair but it works, and the most it does is offend feelings. It doesn't break people's lives. Its just a question of saying no.
you say no to your kids wandering off. You say no to someone unknown getting too close.
You find out about people, if you can't; you don't trust. Its prejudice and discrimination for a purpose, to look after what is valuable to you. You have the right to do this. But not to be an organiser of hatred.
People's confidence to do this has been undermined by the changes in society and how people have been manipulated. Every clever little argument that has caused you to stop and think again has done this. But most of these ideas and theories are incomplete. They form and change as they are introduced and are often abandoned, and replaced with other equally inept theories.
Rehabilitation is a statutory duty in a civilised society. That's all.
Within the last few decades the intervention of modern social and scientific practices and the various powers of authorities has left many of the population confused about their own values and feelings. This is as a result of nearly all the arguments and theories that are there to represent and/or support the supposedly good work of people who are enjoying full time employment in such related occupations.
But it has become a profession and an industry, and a profitable one at that. Not only for people working directly in the profession, but the many other aspects of industry which are more closely related to entertainment. Media such as books, films and television derive a substantial and sustained benefit from the unfortunate consequences of people's lives.
Fighting evil is an age old war. Which people can protect themselves from. People have been able to protect themselves and their families from evil by using prejudice and discrimination. Its not fair but it works, and the most it does is offend feelings. It doesn't break people's lives. Its just a question of saying no.
you say no to your kids wandering off. You say no to someone unknown getting too close.
You find out about people, if you can't; you don't trust. Its prejudice and discrimination for a purpose, to look after what is valuable to you. You have the right to do this. But not to be an organiser of hatred.
People's confidence to do this has been undermined by the changes in society and how people have been manipulated. Every clever little argument that has caused you to stop and think again has done this. But most of these ideas and theories are incomplete. They form and change as they are introduced and are often abandoned, and replaced with other equally inept theories.
Rehabilitation is a statutory duty in a civilised society. That's all.
Sex God
Quote by flower411
There needs to be a system whereby offenders are either suitably punished and/or given some level of rehabilitation. But there are also needs to be a lot less of the nanny state assuming they know what is best for people. And that is the majority of the population not just offenders.
Within the last few decades the intervention of modern social and scientific practices and the various powers of authorities has left many of the population confused about their own values and feelings. This is as a result of nearly all the arguments and theories that are there to represent and/or support the supposedly good work of people who are enjoying full time employment in such related occupations.
But it has become a profession and an industry, and a profitable one at that. Not only for people working directly in the profession, but the many other aspects of industry which are more closely related to entertainment. Media such as books, films and television derive a substantial and sustained benefit from the unfortunate consequences of people's lives.
Fighting evil is an age old war. Which people can protect themselves from. People have been able to protect themselves and their families from evil by using prejudice and discrimination. Its not fair but it works, and the most it does is offend feelings. It doesn't break people's lives. Its just a question of saying no.
you say no to your kids wandering off. You say no to someone unknown getting too close.
You find out about people, if you can't; you don't trust. Its prejudice and discrimination for a purpose, to look after what is valuable to you. You have the right to do this. But not to be an organiser of hatred.
People's confidence to do this has been undermined by the changes in society and how people have been manipulated. Every clever little argument that has caused you to stop and think again has done this. But most of these ideas and theories are incomplete. They form and change as they are introduced and are often abandoned, and replaced with other equally inept theories.
Rehabilitation is a statutory duty in a civilised society. That's all.
And many of the "educated" people with university degrees in psychology and stuff are the most naive and easily lead people that society has ever bred.
The need for "rehabilitation" is the aim of both the offender and the psychologist ....the offender to gain freedom and the psychologist to gain acceptance.
Society as a whole is served well by neither outcome !!
hmmmmm food for thought
Sex God
As I understand it there is a significantly lower incidence of re-offending in those prisoners who undergo some form of rehabilitation than those who don't....prison doesn't work rehabilitation(i.e. education) apparently does.
That kind of document is an example of the vast plethora of material which is produced by professional academics, and can generally only be understood by such people, not the less educated. Its a world within itself and not much actual use to people dealing with protecting their lives at the point of contact with evil.
I don't actually need it. I may scan through it but I doubt I'll be able to take it in. I would have to re-educate myelf and change to do so. I don't have the time for that, I can only do what's left of my life as I am. I am busy enough dealing with what me and my family are going through, thankfully it doesn't involve dealing with a mightmare because we made decisions to avoid that as best we could.
I don't care if someone thinks I am being ignorant. It doesn't help me in protecting me and my family. I may make unfortunate decisions and piss people off, but I know I haven't taken a risk.
No kind of well written article is going to halt the process that the young boys got into. It won't stop someone pulling a knife on you if you unfortunately find them robbing your house.
Its all well intentioned, well produced and probably links neatly to any number of current theories, but people need tools and weapons to fight the war on the ground. They don't and should not expect to wait through their lives to see 'changes' or 'improvements', they want to protect their loved ones now so they can have a decent life.
Its no good pointing to great 'success' stories about rehabilitated offenders. Their identities are protected and no one knows who they are. So the 'work or 'product' is never seen as such.
Anonymous people produce a library of details about anonymous beneficiaries of their work of which few actually understand, because much of it is secret. its madness.
What people who have to watch out for these things need; is to understand their gut feelings and have the confidence to make the right decision to protect their own. this may well be ignorant and uneducated, but its the only tool available.
I don't actually need it. I may scan through it but I doubt I'll be able to take it in. I would have to re-educate myelf and change to do so. I don't have the time for that, I can only do what's left of my life as I am. I am busy enough dealing with what me and my family are going through, thankfully it doesn't involve dealing with a mightmare because we made decisions to avoid that as best we could.
I don't care if someone thinks I am being ignorant. It doesn't help me in protecting me and my family. I may make unfortunate decisions and piss people off, but I know I haven't taken a risk.
No kind of well written article is going to halt the process that the young boys got into. It won't stop someone pulling a knife on you if you unfortunately find them robbing your house.
Its all well intentioned, well produced and probably links neatly to any number of current theories, but people need tools and weapons to fight the war on the ground. They don't and should not expect to wait through their lives to see 'changes' or 'improvements', they want to protect their loved ones now so they can have a decent life.
Its no good pointing to great 'success' stories about rehabilitated offenders. Their identities are protected and no one knows who they are. So the 'work or 'product' is never seen as such.
Anonymous people produce a library of details about anonymous beneficiaries of their work of which few actually understand, because much of it is secret. its madness.
What people who have to watch out for these things need; is to understand their gut feelings and have the confidence to make the right decision to protect their own. this may well be ignorant and uneducated, but its the only tool available.
Quote by duncanlondon
That kind of document is an example of the vast plethora of material which is produced by professional academics, and can generally only be understood by such people, not the less educated. Its a world within itself and not much actual use to people dealing with protecting their lives at the point of contact with evil.
I don't actually need it. I may scan through it but I doubt I'll be able to take it in. I would have to re-educate myelf and change to do so. I don't have the time for that, I can only do what's left of my life as I am. I am busy enough dealing with what me and my family are going through, thankfully it doesn't involve dealing with a mightmare because we made decisions to avoid that as best we could.
I don't care if someone thinks I am being ignorant. It doesn't help me in protecting me and my family. I may make unfortunate decisions and piss people off, but I know I haven't taken a risk.
No kind of well written article is going to halt the process that the young boys got into. It won't stop someone pulling a knife on you if you unfortunately find them robbing your house.
Its all well intentioned, well produced and probably links neatly to any number of current theories, but people need tools and weapons to fight the war on the ground. They don't and should not expect to wait through their lives to see 'changes' or 'improvements', they want to protect their loved ones now so they can have a decent life.
Its no good pointing to great 'success' stories about rehabilitated offenders. Their identities are protected and no one knows who they are. So the 'work or 'product' is never seen as such.
Anonymous people produce a library of details about anonymous beneficiaries of their work of which few actually understand, because much of it is secret. its madness.
What people who have to watch out for these things need; is to understand their gut feelings and have the confidence to make the right decision to protect their own. this may well be ignorant and uneducated, but its the only tool available.
I don't reallt want to get sucked into your paranoid world where there's a war going on on the ground, but I'll maybe float a few names of prisoners who haven't been given a new identity and who have been successfully rehabilitated.
Google Erwin James.
Jimmy Boyle has written brilliantly about his life and experiences. Boyle was also brilliant fictionalized by Chris Brookmyre in 'One fine day in the middle of the night' - quite the funniest book you'll read until you pick up another Brookmyre book.
John Hirst, who blogs as Jailhouse Lawyer, is a really important voice as well about the corrosive effects of not caring adequately for young people in care. Inside Times provides good info about what it's really like inside.
Quote by awayman
That kind of document is an example of the vast plethora of material which is produced by professional academics, and can generally only be understood by such people, not the less educated. Its a world within itself and not much actual use to people dealing with protecting their lives at the point of contact with evil.
I don't actually need it. I may scan through it but I doubt I'll be able to take it in. I would have to re-educate myelf and change to do so. I don't have the time for that, I can only do what's left of my life as I am. I am busy enough dealing with what me and my family are going through, thankfully it doesn't involve dealing with a mightmare because we made decisions to avoid that as best we could.
I don't care if someone thinks I am being ignorant. It doesn't help me in protecting me and my family. I may make unfortunate decisions and piss people off, but I know I haven't taken a risk.
No kind of well written article is going to halt the process that the young boys got into. It won't stop someone pulling a knife on you if you unfortunately find them robbing your house.
Its all well intentioned, well produced and probably links neatly to any number of current theories, but people need tools and weapons to fight the war on the ground. They don't and should not expect to wait through their lives to see 'changes' or 'improvements', they want to protect their loved ones now so they can have a decent life.
Its no good pointing to great 'success' stories about rehabilitated offenders. Their identities are protected and no one knows who they are. So the 'work or 'product' is never seen as such.
Anonymous people produce a library of details about anonymous beneficiaries of their work of which few actually understand, because much of it is secret. its madness.
What people who have to watch out for these things need; is to understand their gut feelings and have the confidence to make the right decision to protect their own. this may well be ignorant and uneducated, but its the only tool available.
I don't reallt want to get sucked into your paranoid world where there's a war going on on the ground, but I'll maybe float a few names of prisoners who haven't been given a new identity and who have been successfully rehabilitated.
Google Erwin James.
Jimmy Boyle has written brilliantly about his life and experiences. Boyle was also brilliant fictionalized by Chris Brookmyre in 'One fine day in the middle of the night' - quite the funniest book you'll read until you pick up another Brookmyre book.
John Hirst, who blogs as Jailhouse Lawyer, is a really important voice as well about the corrosive effects of not caring adequately for young people in care. Inside Times provides good info about what it's really like inside.
Its paranoia? I don't care what you want to call it. I need to survive, its the tool i use. You choose benevolence, all well and good. But for some people those ideas are part of what the war is about.
Hey ho there's a book about it. Nice little earner eh? re: industry of people's misfortunes. That will make us all feel very comforted.
If I really want to know what its like inside, I'll commit a crime. Oddly enough that's just what some offenders do.
Sex God
Quote by flower411
Google Erwin James.
Jimmy Boyle has written brilliantly about his life and experiences. Boyle was also brilliant fictionalized by Chris Brookmyre in 'One fine day in the middle of the night' - quite the funniest book you'll read until you pick up another Brookmyre book.
John Hirst, who blogs as Jailhouse Lawyer, is a really important voice as well about the corrosive effects of not caring adequately for young people in care. Inside Times provides good info about what it's really like inside.
So let me just get this clear......you think that violent killers making money from writing about their crimes is a good thing and we should all sleep easy in our beds as a consequence.
Feels a little crazy,(to me) when an honest man may struggle to make an honest living, when what he should have done is commit violent crimes and then write about it. What a Topsy tervy world we live in!
Awayman me old cocker...
Check Governments stats as to how may criminals re-offend, after spending time apparently getting rehabilitation in prison.
You quote a couple who seemed to do alright out of it financially, but there are way many more who do re-offend!
IF there was not one single person that was not rehabilitated in this system....then God help us all.
Sometimes your outlook and thoughts ( and your apparent knowledge on everything, including the structure of the Twin Towers )baffles me to such a degree, that I have to go and have a lie down.
Check Governments stats as to how may criminals re-offend, after spending time apparently getting rehabilitation in prison.
You quote a couple who seemed to do alright out of it financially, but there are way many more who do re-offend!
IF there was not one single person that was not rehabilitated in this system....then God help us all.
Sometimes your outlook and thoughts ( and your apparent knowledge on everything, including the structure of the Twin Towers )baffles me to such a degree, that I have to go and have a lie down.
Fast forward three or four years. The victims of the attack have gone off the rails. They're found to have tortured and killed their neighbours pet rabbit.
Imagine your feelings. Would you be crying out for them to be put behind bars? Would you be hoping they would get some help? Saying that they had been damaged by their experiences? Blaming their attackers?
Now, rewind by the same time period. There are two young boys going off the rails. Low level criminality...and then you see the circumstances their young minds are being formed in. They are receiving no moral guidance. They are being horrifically neglected. They are learning that normal is violence and abuse. I would imagine that the reaction of most would be that these children needed removing from that situation, and given help to reshape their minds.
But no-one does that. Social services and whoever else is involved don't protect these children as they should. Day by day, the children's upbringing is reinforcing in their minds that wrong is right.
I would imagine, again, that most of us would be baying for social services to protect these children, and prosecute the parents.
In time, these children commit an horrific crime.
At that point, suddenly, they cross the line from "victims" to "devils."
These kids really didn't stand a chance. Unless we are categorically stating that no-one, not one single person, has ever been helped by psyc intervention, then there is a chance that one or both of them might just have their minds reshaped.
Imagine a dog who has been mistreated. He's become aggressive as a result, and turns up at a dogs home emaciated and snarly. How many of us want to see the dog well fed, and an attempt made at retraining, compared to how many want to see it put in a kennel for the rest of it's days and given food through the bars?
Surely the humane thing to do in both cases is to try.
Trying doesn't have to be at the expense of protecting society.
God forbid that the victims currently in our minds also cross that line between victim and monster...
Imagine your feelings. Would you be crying out for them to be put behind bars? Would you be hoping they would get some help? Saying that they had been damaged by their experiences? Blaming their attackers?
Now, rewind by the same time period. There are two young boys going off the rails. Low level criminality...and then you see the circumstances their young minds are being formed in. They are receiving no moral guidance. They are being horrifically neglected. They are learning that normal is violence and abuse. I would imagine that the reaction of most would be that these children needed removing from that situation, and given help to reshape their minds.
But no-one does that. Social services and whoever else is involved don't protect these children as they should. Day by day, the children's upbringing is reinforcing in their minds that wrong is right.
I would imagine, again, that most of us would be baying for social services to protect these children, and prosecute the parents.
In time, these children commit an horrific crime.
At that point, suddenly, they cross the line from "victims" to "devils."
These kids really didn't stand a chance. Unless we are categorically stating that no-one, not one single person, has ever been helped by psyc intervention, then there is a chance that one or both of them might just have their minds reshaped.
Imagine a dog who has been mistreated. He's become aggressive as a result, and turns up at a dogs home emaciated and snarly. How many of us want to see the dog well fed, and an attempt made at retraining, compared to how many want to see it put in a kennel for the rest of it's days and given food through the bars?
Surely the humane thing to do in both cases is to try.
Trying doesn't have to be at the expense of protecting society.
God forbid that the victims currently in our minds also cross that line between victim and monster...
Yes Witchy we are fully aware here that the parents ( I can think of a better label for them ),are the major bearers of how these kids have turned out, and yes they should both be sent to prison for ten years minimum.
But come on.....there are plenty of kids out there in similar circumstances to this, and believe me some even do not try and kill other children!
That does not excuse the fact that these kids knew this was wrong.
In Liberal Britain NOTHING will be done with these parents, as there are a damn site more than these doing exactly the same is society in many cases that is to blame and terrible parents are just a part of the breakdown.
My next door neighbour who most would think is a decent guy, brought his nine year old son a 18 certificate Playstation game not too long ago. It contained violence and prostitution and he saw no wrong in giving it to a kid so young....this is from a decent parent. How many dreadful parents are there, where they give their kids drink and drugs and really do not give a shit about their kids?
Bottom line here is I now feel these kids minds have now become so warped that I feel that will always be a danger to the public. Yes try and rehabilitate them as that is what a decent society tries to do but....they showed not an ounce of remorse for their horrific crimes and I think they never will.
WHEN they are released...as they will be, the people responsible for that decision, should be held personally responsible IF it goes wrong. Maybe that would make these people think ARE they really doing the right thing.
This is obviously not a normal set of circumstances ( or is it ? ), and before they are even considered for release, the so called experts ( of which I have no faith in anyway )HAVE to be so sure they will never re-offend, and they will never be that sure.
We have the Bulger killers out there in society now...new identities....new lives, but the Bulger family have to live that nightmare forever.
Too many do gooders out there today only too quick to give people extra chances.....to all those people....would YOU want these kids living next door to you when they are released? Thought not.
I do not want to see kids locked up forever, but the alternatives are to try and help them but....what happens if they do not want that help? These kids are so evil that to release them will put the public in grave danger....but release them they will, maybe to a house near you.
But come on.....there are plenty of kids out there in similar circumstances to this, and believe me some even do not try and kill other children!
That does not excuse the fact that these kids knew this was wrong.
In Liberal Britain NOTHING will be done with these parents, as there are a damn site more than these doing exactly the same is society in many cases that is to blame and terrible parents are just a part of the breakdown.
My next door neighbour who most would think is a decent guy, brought his nine year old son a 18 certificate Playstation game not too long ago. It contained violence and prostitution and he saw no wrong in giving it to a kid so young....this is from a decent parent. How many dreadful parents are there, where they give their kids drink and drugs and really do not give a shit about their kids?
Bottom line here is I now feel these kids minds have now become so warped that I feel that will always be a danger to the public. Yes try and rehabilitate them as that is what a decent society tries to do but....they showed not an ounce of remorse for their horrific crimes and I think they never will.
WHEN they are released...as they will be, the people responsible for that decision, should be held personally responsible IF it goes wrong. Maybe that would make these people think ARE they really doing the right thing.
This is obviously not a normal set of circumstances ( or is it ? ), and before they are even considered for release, the so called experts ( of which I have no faith in anyway )HAVE to be so sure they will never re-offend, and they will never be that sure.
We have the Bulger killers out there in society now...new identities....new lives, but the Bulger family have to live that nightmare forever.
Too many do gooders out there today only too quick to give people extra chances.....to all those people....would YOU want these kids living next door to you when they are released? Thought not.
I do not want to see kids locked up forever, but the alternatives are to try and help them but....what happens if they do not want that help? These kids are so evil that to release them will put the public in grave danger....but release them they will, maybe to a house near you.
Sex God
Both witchy & Kentswingers777 have well written remarks
I find it difficult to know which side of the line to come down on, I don't know what it Say's about me, but I think Kent may just have the edge. (and we don't agree on much)
I find it difficult to know which side of the line to come down on, I don't know what it Say's about me, but I think Kent may just have the edge. (and we don't agree on much)
There are no recorded instances of child murderers (children who have murdered rather than adults who have murdered children) going on to become serial murderers of family, or strangers come to that, after release. Unless of course you know different.
You would be hard pressed to find any serious violent crime, child offenders, who upon release returned to a life of violence. I couldn't find any such examples.
Rhetoric based on false representations based on biased media reports is very easy to confuse with rational fact based debate.
You would be hard pressed to find any serious violent crime, child offenders, who upon release returned to a life of violence. I couldn't find any such examples.
Rhetoric based on false representations based on biased media reports is very easy to confuse with rational fact based debate.
Quote by Ben_welshminx
There are no recorded instances of child murderers (children who have murdered rather than adults who have murdered children) going on to become serial murderers of family, or strangers come to that, after release. Unless of course you know different.
You would be hard pressed to find any serious violent crime, child offenders, who upon release returned to a life of violence. I couldn't find any such examples.
Rhetoric based on false representations based on biased media reports is very easy to confuse with rational fact based debate.
This has nothing at all to do with media reports....it is what I THINK!
Everyone on here knows your opinions as they know mine Benny.
I know you would be fine with these kids being released and living next door to you, but most people would not be.
As far as I am aware it has only been in Liberal broken Britain over the last 15 years or so where crimes like this, done by kids has happened.
I have no figures of this obviously but then again the figures you quote often come from some sort of media source.
IF you can come up with child crimes such as this say from pre 1975 I would be intersted to know. It is about Liberal Britain and it's attitudes now towards criminals, that we find ourselves in situations of crime that we do now.
As a kid of this age in the 70's I never heard of anything as violent or parents that are as broken, as they are now...my experience!
Broken Britain exists whatever the media or anyone else might say, because when you have easy laid back attitudes to everything now, there is ALWAYS a price to pay.
Prisons are full to bursting for the first time ever, and that is with prisoners being released way earlier than they should be....why is that I wonder?
These kids are evil, their crimes are evil and their parents are evil, you have your opinions as to why this is and I have mine.
Would you like them living next door to you then? You would be ok with that?
True there arent a lot of children murdering, and there are more in the States than the UK. As far as I know the US model for juvenile offender rehabilitation is similar to our own.
I tire of challenging rhetoric then being asked to provide evidence to support a challenge to rhetoric that was unsupported in the first place.
I still await any and I mean any evidence to support the notions expressed throughout this thread. In the absence of that I fail to see any point in debate.
I tire of challenging rhetoric then being asked to provide evidence to support a challenge to rhetoric that was unsupported in the first place.
I still await any and I mean any evidence to support the notions expressed throughout this thread. In the absence of that I fail to see any point in debate.
Quote by flower411
There aren`t a lot of children who commit murder and many of those that do appear to be in America.......where they don`t let them out !
Sounds like an adequate solution to me ....if ya don`t let them out they don`t reoffend, job done.
Sex God
Quote by Kaznkev
There are no recorded instances of child murderers (children who have murdered rather than adults who have murdered children) going on to become serial murderers of family, or strangers come to that, after release. Unless of course you know different.
You would be hard pressed to find any serious violent crime, child offenders, who upon release returned to a life of violence. I couldn't find any such examples.
Rhetoric based on false representations based on biased media reports is very easy to confuse with rational fact based debate.
This has nothing at all to do with media reports....it is what I THINK!
Everyone on here knows your opinions as they know mine Benny.
I know you would be fine with these kids being released and living next door to you, but most people would not be.
As far as I am aware it has only been in Liberal broken Britain over the last 15 years or so where crimes like this, done by kids has happened.
I have no figures of this obviously but then again the figures you quote often come from some sort of media source.
IF you can come up with child crimes such as this say from pre 1975 I would be intersted to know. It is about Liberal Britain and it's attitudes now towards criminals, that we find ourselves in situations of crime that we do now.
As a kid of this age in the 70's I never heard of anything as violent or parents that are as broken, as they are now...my experience!
Broken Britain exists whatever the media or anyone else might say, because when you have easy laid back attitudes to everything now, there is ALWAYS a price to pay.
Prisons are full to bursting for the first time ever, and that is with prisoners being released way earlier than they should be....why is that I wonder?
These kids are evil, their crimes are evil and their parents are evil, you have your opinions as to why this is and I have mine.
Would you like them living next door to you then? You would be ok with that?
Mary bell,not in the past 15 years
rehabilitated and raised her own daughter well
this case is too sad to try and make party political points out off
It is very sad, but the same dicusion will be taking place through out the country
We can all spout here whatever we like but...let me give those " second chance people " a little snippet from someone who knows more about the system, than any of us ever will......Denis Fergus.
Not familiar to any of you? Then let me tell you her past name...Denise Bulger. Remember her at all?
Her son was murdered by two feral evil kids, not a lot dissimilar to this case, other than the fact her Son's killers were just that....killers.
She says " Unless they are fully identified. how can people be satisfied that justice has been done ? ".
She also goes on to say..." The social workers and officials in cases like this like to hide behind the anonymity of children ".
She continues to say..." I remember my relief when the two boys who killed Jmaes were named after their trial. I think it was the right thing to do. They were named and so were their parents. There is no reason why those involved in such serious cases should be allowed to keep their identities secret. The sad fact is that this latest case will follow the same pattern concerning the treatment of the evil pair who murdered James ".
Makes sense to me but she goes on to say..." It has been set up now with the five year sentence they were given. during that time they will be sent to secure children's homes where they will be given a fine education and the best of everything from Playstations to holidays. They will be given the kid glove treatment until they are 17 and will never spend a day behind bars or receive any real punishment for the horrific crimes they have committed ".
But the real horror of this is this paragraph...
" No doubt like James killers they will be given new identities and new lives when they are released. They will be laughing up their sleeves at the law".
But the most damning thing she says, and she knows personally..." Boys like this who are so evil by the age of ten or eleven will never be changed into decent people. In the childrens homes they will just learn how to play the system with the anonymity and protection that they will be given for life...we never had that same protection ".
Now everyone is entitled to their views but for me, this is from someone who knows how the system works.
I trust her words and her judgement over the social do gooders, who will be bending over backwards to give these evil kids, everything they ever wished for, whilst laughing at the crimes they have committed.
Justice? Yeah right.
Not familiar to any of you? Then let me tell you her past name...Denise Bulger. Remember her at all?
Her son was murdered by two feral evil kids, not a lot dissimilar to this case, other than the fact her Son's killers were just that....killers.
She says " Unless they are fully identified. how can people be satisfied that justice has been done ? ".
She also goes on to say..." The social workers and officials in cases like this like to hide behind the anonymity of children ".
She continues to say..." I remember my relief when the two boys who killed Jmaes were named after their trial. I think it was the right thing to do. They were named and so were their parents. There is no reason why those involved in such serious cases should be allowed to keep their identities secret. The sad fact is that this latest case will follow the same pattern concerning the treatment of the evil pair who murdered James ".
Makes sense to me but she goes on to say..." It has been set up now with the five year sentence they were given. during that time they will be sent to secure children's homes where they will be given a fine education and the best of everything from Playstations to holidays. They will be given the kid glove treatment until they are 17 and will never spend a day behind bars or receive any real punishment for the horrific crimes they have committed ".
But the real horror of this is this paragraph...
" No doubt like James killers they will be given new identities and new lives when they are released. They will be laughing up their sleeves at the law".
But the most damning thing she says, and she knows personally..." Boys like this who are so evil by the age of ten or eleven will never be changed into decent people. In the childrens homes they will just learn how to play the system with the anonymity and protection that they will be given for life...we never had that same protection ".
Now everyone is entitled to their views but for me, this is from someone who knows how the system works.
I trust her words and her judgement over the social do gooders, who will be bending over backwards to give these evil kids, everything they ever wished for, whilst laughing at the crimes they have committed.
Justice? Yeah right.
Quote by kentswingers777
Yes Witchy we are fully aware here that the parents ( I can think of a better label for them ),are the major bearers of how these kids have turned out, and yes they should both be sent to prison for ten years minimum.
But come on.....there are plenty of kids out there in similar circumstances to this, and believe me some even do not try and kill other children!
That does not excuse the fact that these kids knew this was wrong.
In Liberal Britain NOTHING will be done with these parents, as there are a damn site more than these doing exactly the same is society in many cases that is to blame and terrible parents are just a part of the breakdown.
My next door neighbour who most would think is a decent guy, brought his nine year old son a 18 certificate Playstation game not too long ago. It contained violence and prostitution and he saw no wrong in giving it to a kid so young....this is from a decent parent. How many dreadful parents are there, where they give their kids drink and drugs and really do not give a shit about their kids?
Bottom line here is I now feel these kids minds have now become so warped that I feel that will always be a danger to the public. Yes try and rehabilitate them as that is what a decent society tries to do but....they showed not an ounce of remorse for their horrific crimes and I think they never will.
WHEN they are released...as they will be, the people responsible for that decision, should be held personally responsible IF it goes wrong. Maybe that would make these people think ARE they really doing the right thing.
This is obviously not a normal set of circumstances ( or is it ? ), and before they are even considered for release, the so called experts ( of which I have no faith in anyway )HAVE to be so sure they will never re-offend, and they will never be that sure.
We have the Bulger killers out there in society now...new identities....new lives, but the Bulger family have to live that nightmare forever.
Too many do gooders out there today only too quick to give people extra chances.....to all those people....would YOU want these kids living next door to you when they are released? Thought not.
I do not want to see kids locked up forever, but the alternatives are to try and help them but....what happens if they do not want that help? These kids are so evil that to release them will put the public in grave danger....but release them they will, maybe to a house near you.
Not singling you out personally, just responding to your having responded...
...but you speak of extra chances. I'm not advocating chance upon chance- just that these children are given a chance to be "fixed." I would expect my ten year old to know that killing/maiming something or someone was wrong. Did these kids really understand that? The process of primary socialisation is fundamentally important. In those early years, I doubt these kids learned anything. Couple that with their minds being addled by drink and drugs...
The experts have failed miserably. They should be held accountable- but the problem with this is that no doubt the social workers on the ground will have been working within budget constraints, doing as little as they could get away with...and that's a problem dripping down from far higher up.
If they don't want help, and they don't respond to help, then they won't regain their liberty.
And yes, someone has to make a judgment call as to whether they have genuinely responded. Hopefully, it will be a team of someone"s", and assessment will be rigorous. Also hopefully, supervision would continue indefinitely after release, should it happen. Thompson and Venables have been back in the community for several years now. If there is one thing I don't doubt it's that should they commit a crime, we will all hear about it.
One more very quick point (my bath is going cold...)
You argue that people are not born evil, but that they become that way. If that's the case, then these kids, whose minds were once a blank canvas, have had a bleak picture painted upon them. There's a glimmer- just a glimmer of hope that it was painted in non- permanent paint.
It may be too late. The canvas may be stained permanently. But lets at least hope that it isn't.
Added:
Kent, whilst I have every sympathy for Jamie Bulger's family, most of the above is conjecture. I have personal experience of some of the area's his mum is speaking of, and I know some of it to be true- but equally, I know that some of it's not. If she's not in a position to know that they've been properly punished, then she's surely not in a position to know that they're "laughing up their sleeves at the law."
Whips, for the record I'm not in the 100% nurture camp, I believe wholeheartedly that it's a bit of both.
Yup, when a dog attacks someone chances are they'll be put down...because no one will want to take the chance again. I can see why many people don't want to take the chance with these kids. However, the difference is (prepares to be lynched) we place a far higher value on the life of a human than that of a dog.
If they were over 18, they'd still be a damaged product of their upbringing. However, I think there would be less chance of being able to reshape their thought processes.
Certainly, not all people can be cured. But I don't think that that in itself is reason enough not to try.
Yup, when a dog attacks someone chances are they'll be put down...because no one will want to take the chance again. I can see why many people don't want to take the chance with these kids. However, the difference is (prepares to be lynched) we place a far higher value on the life of a human than that of a dog.
If they were over 18, they'd still be a damaged product of their upbringing. However, I think there would be less chance of being able to reshape their thought processes.
Certainly, not all people can be cured. But I don't think that that in itself is reason enough not to try.
Witchy your comment " If she's not in a position to know that they've been properly punished, then she's surely not in a position to know that they're "laughing up their sleeves at the law " is to me quite laughable.
I am as sure as I can be that she KNOWS exactly how her sons killers have been treated. As a parent I am sure I would know as well.
The law is an ass at the best of times, and the problem that I know personally is that in the eyes of the law they are still minors, and the law is on their side.
I would without any shadow of a doubt trust and believe a Mother who has had to see her son by scum children, over any bloody lefty social workers...not saying you are one of those.
She knows or has been told how her sons killers have been treated, imagine how she must have felt that instead of them being punished, they were living the life of riley...nice eh?
And we wonder why our jails are full, and yes Broken Britain is out there.....everywhere caused by parents who should never have been given the right to a birth of a child.
I also think this Mother of these kids should be sterilized without any delay.
I am as sure as I can be that she KNOWS exactly how her sons killers have been treated. As a parent I am sure I would know as well.
The law is an ass at the best of times, and the problem that I know personally is that in the eyes of the law they are still minors, and the law is on their side.
I would without any shadow of a doubt trust and believe a Mother who has had to see her son by scum children, over any bloody lefty social workers...not saying you are one of those.
She knows or has been told how her sons killers have been treated, imagine how she must have felt that instead of them being punished, they were living the life of riley...nice eh?
And we wonder why our jails are full, and yes Broken Britain is out there.....everywhere caused by parents who should never have been given the right to a birth of a child.
I also think this Mother of these kids should be sterilized without any delay.
Quote by kentswingers777
Witchy your comment " If she's not in a position to know that they've been properly punished, then she's surely not in a position to know that they're "laughing up their sleeves at the law " is to me quite laughable.
I am as sure as I can be that she KNOWS exactly how her sons killers have been treated. As a parent I am sure I would know as well.
The law is an ass at the best of times, and the problem that I know personally is that in the eyes of the law they are still minors, and the law is on their side.
I would without any shadow of a doubt trust and believe a Mother who has had to see her son by scum children, over any bloody lefty social workers...not saying you are one of those.
She knows or has been told how her sons killers have been treated, imagine how she must have felt that instead of them being punished, they were living the life of riley...nice eh?
And we wonder why our jails are full, and yes Broken Britain is out there.....everywhere caused by parents who should never have been given the right to a birth of a child.
I also think this Mother of these kids should be sterilized without any delay.
Most parents of murdered children would quite understandably seek the harshest punishment possible for their childs murderer/s. Anything less would provoke resentment.
I'd be shocked to find that Denise Fergus knows more than the basics about how Thompson & Venables have been treated. She may know of their day to day routine inside, which games console they had...etc etc, but she won't have been privy to the intimate details of their treatment and their outcomes. That's not to say I'd be likely to believe a social worker either ;)
The sweeping statement of "Boys like this who are so evil by the age of 10 and 11 will never be changed into decent people" is opinion, not fact.
But this isn't about the opinions of Denise Fergus. And it's sure as hell not about mine. I'm here to provide food for thought, as always.
Quote by GnV
I'm glad you think I'm an expert but I've made no such claim.
I don't know the price of everything.
You have to remember that awayman is an expert...
he also knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
That's about right.. you know jack shit
Jack Shit? Nice bloke, works down the sewage farm...
