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RIP Nelson Mandela
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Orgasminator
very sad news xxxxxx rip
Sex God
To be fair, he wasn't bad, as far as terrorists go.
I've no doubt he has left a positive and lasting impression on the world.
I've no doubt he has left a positive and lasting impression on the world.
Sex God
You are quite correct. But notwithstanding all the good he did for the world, history still shows he was convicted 
Sexpert
But notwithstanding all the good he did for the world, history still shows he was convicted
As too was Gandhi and quite a few others. If I were a brilliant student who had done all they could to better myself but to be thwarted only by the colour of my skin. To then look around me and find that skin colour held back the vast majority of people in my country by the fact that in a so called democracy I nor anybody born with my skin colour could not vote, it might just dawn on me that it is unjust.
Although I doubt I would have the courage, I like to think I would be moved to do something about it.
Once released from Robin Island and included in the political system he then showed he was a healer by including those who had tried to silence him. I wish I could agree with Jed but I think history is written by the victors. If I am correct then ours maybe the generation who remember it as it was with some element of reality. Not from being there or being the oppressed but from a a was generally the west that benefited (other than the ruthless dictatorial South African government of the time) from importing cheap fruit, car parts, wine to exporting weapons, military know how and other goods designed to keep the status quo.
It was sanctions that eventually brought the white rulers to there knees, sanctions that the UK were very reluctant to implement. Can't think why?
Terrorist or freedom fighter? No prize for guessing my view! South Africa may now or may never be a paradise, it may even become a very dangerous place but at least the majority of it's people who will decide.
Thank you Mr Mandela and rest in piece.
As too was Gandhi and quite a few others. If I were a brilliant student who had done all they could to better myself but to be thwarted only by the colour of my skin. To then look around me and find that skin colour held back the vast majority of people in my country by the fact that in a so called democracy I nor anybody born with my skin colour could not vote, it might just dawn on me that it is unjust.
Although I doubt I would have the courage, I like to think I would be moved to do something about it.
Once released from Robin Island and included in the political system he then showed he was a healer by including those who had tried to silence him. I wish I could agree with Jed but I think history is written by the victors. If I am correct then ours maybe the generation who remember it as it was with some element of reality. Not from being there or being the oppressed but from a a was generally the west that benefited (other than the ruthless dictatorial South African government of the time) from importing cheap fruit, car parts, wine to exporting weapons, military know how and other goods designed to keep the status quo.
It was sanctions that eventually brought the white rulers to there knees, sanctions that the UK were very reluctant to implement. Can't think why?
Terrorist or freedom fighter? No prize for guessing my view! South Africa may now or may never be a paradise, it may even become a very dangerous place but at least the majority of it's people who will decide.
Thank you Mr Mandela and rest in piece.
Sex God
gone when his country needs him the most
a great shame
a great shame
Sex God
He lived to a decent age, obviously a remarkable man, but in reality Margret Thatcher and Gerry Adams had way more direct effect on my life.
I find the wall to wall coverage of his death (esp. from the BBC) to be a little over the top.
John
I find the wall to wall coverage of his death (esp. from the BBC) to be a little over the top.
John
Sex God
Who has condemned him Jed?
Sex God
Quote by Trevaunance
You are quite correct. But notwithstanding all the good he did for the world, history still shows he was convicted
As were the Birmingham 6 ;-)
Sex God
Quote by Steve
You are quite correct. But notwithstanding all the good he did for the world, history still shows he was convicted
As were the Birmingham 6 ;-)
The Birmingham six had their convictions overturned. Mandela didn't.
Sex God
And so we go full circle back to my original post.
Quote by Trevaunance
To be fair, he wasn't bad, as far as terrorists go.
I've no doubt he has left a positive and lasting impression on the world.
I understand what your saying but for me it is easier, because I do not believe that terrorists exist.
As a soldier I am duty bound to fight the enemy, one side will say I am fighting a terrorist the other side will say they are freedom fighters, soldiers do not have the priviledge of deciding who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter, we can have an opinion but not decide what action to take, for example, in Northern Ireland I fought the IRA, I believe they were right in what they wanted, a united Ireland, but I feel I was right to fight them because they used terrorism to achieve their goals, goals which is history is proving will be achieved eventually through the ballot not the bullet.
Afghan fighters, defending their Country from invasion or terrorists.
American fighters in the war of independence, terrorists or freedom fighters.
British troops in the US, invaders ruling the country through force or legal owners of the country.
North Vietnamese fighters, terrorists or fighting for the unification of Vietnam.
South Vietnamese fighters, terrorists or fighting for the unification of Vietnam.
Winston Churchill and Bomber Harris, terrorists or tacticians, it is a question that has no answer, ordering the carpet bombing of civilian populations today would be a war crime, back then they were heroes.
Usually the winning side or side in Power decides the label, in Syria today many western nations are supporting those who seek to overthrow the government, sometimes those same nations support the governments in power prior to the uprisings.
I personally believe that Nelson Mandela fought for the rightful freedom of the black South Africans who were repressed by the government of the time, something we and most of the western world believed to be wrong which is why we imposed sanctions against the people and government of South Africa, if indeed Mandela was a terrorist we supported his actions.
As a soldier I am duty bound to fight the enemy, one side will say I am fighting a terrorist the other side will say they are freedom fighters, soldiers do not have the priviledge of deciding who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter, we can have an opinion but not decide what action to take, for example, in Northern Ireland I fought the IRA, I believe they were right in what they wanted, a united Ireland, but I feel I was right to fight them because they used terrorism to achieve their goals, goals which is history is proving will be achieved eventually through the ballot not the bullet.
Afghan fighters, defending their Country from invasion or terrorists.
American fighters in the war of independence, terrorists or freedom fighters.
British troops in the US, invaders ruling the country through force or legal owners of the country.
North Vietnamese fighters, terrorists or fighting for the unification of Vietnam.
South Vietnamese fighters, terrorists or fighting for the unification of Vietnam.
Winston Churchill and Bomber Harris, terrorists or tacticians, it is a question that has no answer, ordering the carpet bombing of civilian populations today would be a war crime, back then they were heroes.
Usually the winning side or side in Power decides the label, in Syria today many western nations are supporting those who seek to overthrow the government, sometimes those same nations support the governments in power prior to the uprisings.
I personally believe that Nelson Mandela fought for the rightful freedom of the black South Africans who were repressed by the government of the time, something we and most of the western world believed to be wrong which is why we imposed sanctions against the people and government of South Africa, if indeed Mandela was a terrorist we supported his actions.
Sex God
Jed,
I think Maggie refused to order sanctions against South Africa. (I haven't check that as a fact, just from memory)
John
I think Maggie refused to order sanctions against South Africa. (I haven't check that as a fact, just from memory)
John
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
condemned to being labelled a terrorist ?
Your the one that bought up condemning people, not me. Likewise I believe it was a court that convicted him, not me.
As you said the winning side or side in power can decide the label, and it's often said that history is written by the victors. Neither Mandela or the ANC have ever denied what he was convicted of, so perhaps they themselves have decided the label.
Quote by MidsCouple24
something we and most of the western world believed to be wrong which is why we imposed sanctions against the people and government of South Africa, if indeed Mandela was a terrorist we supported his actions.
The UK never supported the ANC or Mandela. The decision not to impose sanctions was taken in the early sixties and upheld by successive governments including Lady Thatcher.
We also supported Stalin and Pohl Pot, decisions made by UK Governments have been wrong in the past.
Sometimes illegal actions are right to do, justified so to speak, I think that at the time, the actions of Churchill and Harris were correct but would not support carpet bombing of civilians to be correct in this day and age.
The simple fact is none of us are qualified to decide if what Mandella did when fighting for what he believed in was right or wrong, the majority of South Africans did eventually think it wasn't so bad that he could not be their leader.
We allowed the Japanese Emperor to continue his rule after the WWII we employed war criminals and German WWII high ranking officials, we provided a home for a whole SS Battalion here in the UK, why not forgive Mandella in light of his subsequent endeavours ?
Sometimes illegal actions are right to do, justified so to speak, I think that at the time, the actions of Churchill and Harris were correct but would not support carpet bombing of civilians to be correct in this day and age.
The simple fact is none of us are qualified to decide if what Mandella did when fighting for what he believed in was right or wrong, the majority of South Africans did eventually think it wasn't so bad that he could not be their leader.
We allowed the Japanese Emperor to continue his rule after the WWII we employed war criminals and German WWII high ranking officials, we provided a home for a whole SS Battalion here in the UK, why not forgive Mandella in light of his subsequent endeavours ?
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
The simple fact is none of us are qualified to decide if what Mandella did when fighting for what he believed in was right or wrong
You are entirely correct and at no stage have I decided. I allowed his country's justice system to decide whether it was right or wrong.
Quote by MidsCouple24I've got to admit I know nothing about this. Which battalion was it?
we provided a home for a whole SS Battalion here in the UK
Sexpert
One man's terrorist etc etc - heard it many times, but don't hold with it.
He was an indiscriminate murderer. I have no problem with the founding principle of MK, in that all avenues of legitimate protest were denied to them and thus a guerilla style conflict was justifiable, and some collateral casualties would be inevitable . What was not justifiable was the deliberate indiscriminate targeting of innocent civilians - much like the IRA and Al Qu'aeda. Amnesty International would not take up his case as a prisoner of conscience because of it.
So the fact that in order to be released from prison, he said he was sorry and agreed it was wrong, makes everything all right does it? By that logic, we should expect the same level of emotion when McGuiness and Adams do the human race a favour by leaving it.
He was an indiscriminate murderer. I have no problem with the founding principle of MK, in that all avenues of legitimate protest were denied to them and thus a guerilla style conflict was justifiable, and some collateral casualties would be inevitable . What was not justifiable was the deliberate indiscriminate targeting of innocent civilians - much like the IRA and Al Qu'aeda. Amnesty International would not take up his case as a prisoner of conscience because of it.
So the fact that in order to be released from prison, he said he was sorry and agreed it was wrong, makes everything all right does it? By that logic, we should expect the same level of emotion when McGuiness and Adams do the human race a favour by leaving it.
Quote by easyrider_xxx
One man's terrorist etc etc - heard it many times, but don't hold with it.
He was an indiscriminate murderer. I have no problem with the founding principle of MK, in that all avenues of legitimate protest were denied to them and thus a guerilla style conflict was justifiable, and some collateral casualties would be inevitable . What was not justifiable was the deliberate indiscriminate targeting of innocent civilians - much like the IRA and Al Qu'aeda. Amnesty International would not take up his case as a prisoner of conscience because of it.
So the fact that in order to be released from prison, he said he was sorry and agreed it was wrong, makes everything all right does it? By that logic, we should expect the same level of emotion when McGuiness and Adams do the human race a favour by leaving it.
We have done that so many times.
We forgave Churchill and Truman or do you think they should be labelled as murderers for authorising the indiscriminate targeting and killing of innocent civilians ?
Do you think we should re-arrest all the convicted IRA members who were released from prison as part of the peace treaty in Northern Ireland.
What about the Nazi war criminals that we employed in Medical and Rocket research at the end of the war, or who should be blamed for keeping the Emperor of Japan in power after the Japanese surrender ?
When is the killing of civilians alright, when you have power perhaps, it is ok that civilaian die in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries we have invaded or does the fact that it was authorised by the Government of the time make it legal ?
Is it only when your not in power that it is murder
Sex God
Jed, you keep posing questions, but you skirt round the answers. You never commit one way or the other. You should be a politician!
What is your view?
Clever snipping on my part I know, but that's for a reason. I didn't want the rest of the statement to infringe and cloud this essential fact.
Referring to the quote above, and sticking in the context of this thread:
Life and the world moves on. Social and political realities move with it.
We as the present day holders of this planet have no right to second guess the actions or decisions of the past. We did not live through it and our laws, social restrictions or treaties cannot be applied retrospectively.
I was not present in South Africa in the sixties. I never experienced Apartheid. Those are facts. However, another fact is that I didn't sanction the use of lethal force either. I never raised an illegal military force against my government, I never sought military training in other countries, I never planted bombs at civilian targets and I most certainly never tried to claim that I should have all those things forgotten in the event of my later life being different.
And as far as non emotional influence goes, then I'm sorry but unless you can prove that Mandela didn't do what he was convicted of then he is still a convicted man in my eyes.
Whilst we are at it I'm still wondering where your proof is of a whole battalion of SS joining us after WW2?
What is your view?
Quote by MidsCouple24
or does the fact that it was authorised by the Government of the time make it legal ?
Clever snipping on my part I know, but that's for a reason. I didn't want the rest of the statement to infringe and cloud this essential fact.
Referring to the quote above, and sticking in the context of this thread:
Life and the world moves on. Social and political realities move with it.
We as the present day holders of this planet have no right to second guess the actions or decisions of the past. We did not live through it and our laws, social restrictions or treaties cannot be applied retrospectively.
I was not present in South Africa in the sixties. I never experienced Apartheid. Those are facts. However, another fact is that I didn't sanction the use of lethal force either. I never raised an illegal military force against my government, I never sought military training in other countries, I never planted bombs at civilian targets and I most certainly never tried to claim that I should have all those things forgotten in the event of my later life being different.
And as far as non emotional influence goes, then I'm sorry but unless you can prove that Mandela didn't do what he was convicted of then he is still a convicted man in my eyes.
Whilst we are at it I'm still wondering where your proof is of a whole battalion of SS joining us after WW2?
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
Yea I wasn't really aiming my answers at you, I was thinking more of the last time the topic in the forums was Nelson Mandela, when many people did condemn him.
If you reply to me and/or quote me the I think it fair to be assumed that you are replying to me?
Quote by Trevaunance
Yea I wasn't really aiming my answers at you, I was thinking more of the last time the topic in the forums was Nelson Mandela, when many people did condemn him.
If you reply to me and/or quote me the I think it fair to be assumed that you are replying to me?
Then you have my unreserved apology I should have spent more time preparing my reply
Sex God
Accepted matey 
Quote by Trevaunance
Jed, you keep posing questions, but you skirt round the answers. You never commit one way or the other. You should be a politician!
What is your view?
I do pose the questions and rarely have the answers, but that is why I do it, to listen to other peoples opinions, to see if others can come up with solutions, to open a debate on the subject, I do sometimes have ideas and at these times I put forward those ideas for discussion, sometimes debate shows that the idea is sound, sometimes sound but in need of tweaking and sometimes just not right or workable. I listen, I learn, I contribute.
My opinion of Nelson Mandela, a great man who did things he probably regretted in the belief that this was the only course of action available to him at the time, his actions in later life showed him to, at the very least, have his heart in the right place and wanting peace but prepared to fight for that peace.
My view of what Sir Winston Churchill and Harry Truman did in authorising the killing of civilians carte blanche during WWII, I would have done the same thing, if someone invades the Country I have sworn to defend I would use any force necessary to defeat them and protect my family and fellow countrymen.
or does the fact that it was authorised by the Government of the time make it legal ?
Clever snipping on my part I know, but that's for a reason. I didn't want the rest of the statement to infringe and cloud this essential fact.
Referring to the quote above, and sticking in the context of this thread:
Life and the world moves on. Social and political realities move with it.
Does it ? the accused terrorist Bin Laden was never convicted of a crime but was shot and killed during an attack on his home by US Forces, now personally I think it was a great day, but he was shot as a civilian presumed innocent until proven guilty ! we have had people in these forums who have said that even self admission in tapes cannot be used as evidence since he may have been forced to make those tapes, that a certain cleric in London facing extradition could not be said to be guilty of inciting racial hatred just because he stood up at meetings and did so, he may have been forced to do that.
We as the present day holders of this planet have no right to second guess the actions or decisions of the past. We did not live through it and our laws, social restrictions or treaties cannot be applied retrospectively.
I was not present in South Africa in the sixties. I never experienced Apartheid. Those are facts. However, another fact is that I didn't sanction the use of lethal force either. I never raised an illegal military force against my government, I never sought military training in other countries, I never planted bombs at civilian targets and I most certainly never tried to claim that I should have all those things forgotten in the event of my later life being different.
A defence that the accused used at Nuremberg, "I was only obeying orders" an excuse that the people of Germany used after the war when questioned about the Holocaust, "It was the Nazi party in charge, I was just a civilian"
And as far as non emotional influence goes, then I'm sorry but unless you can prove that Mandela didn't do what he was convicted of then he is still a convicted man in my eyes.
Convicted because he was tried for the crime, Sir Winston Churchill though accused was never tried, Harry Truman though accused was never tried they were after all, the leaders of the Government who were victorious.
Whilst we are at it I'm still wondering where your proof is of a whole battalion of SS joining us after WW2?
The creation of foreign SS units had been carried out previously in the name of fighting against communism; with French, Dutch, Latvian, Estonian, Croatian, and Belarusian units, among others, had been created. The creation of a Ukrainian SS division was perceived by many in Ukraine as a step towards the attainment of Ukrainian independence and attracted many volunteers.
81,999 men enlisted for service in the division. There was a "mandatory" requirement for certain large categories of the population to register for service—for example all males born between 18–25 years old), former soldiers born between 1900 and 1925, and all former officers and non-commissioned officers who had served in any kind of army. Consequently it is erroneous to suggest that all those who enlisted were "volunteers". Of these, 42,000 were called up during the first "recruitment phase" which took place in May and June 1943 from which only 27,000 were deemed fit for military service and 13,000 were recruited. To boost the recruitment figures the height minimum requirement was lowered from to
The Germans rebuilt the division over several months using reserve units. From the end of September 1944, the division was used against the Slovak National Uprising.
The first unit, the 29th regiment with auxiliary units, arrived 28 September 1944. Eventually all divisional units was transferred to Slovakia. From 15 October 1944 they formed two Kampfgruppe, Wittenmayer (which included 3 battalions) and Wildner. The division acted against rebels together with the 18th SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division Horst Wessel, the SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger SS, the Vlasov detachment and other SS and SD formations until 5 February 1945. Jan Stanislav, the director of the National Uprising Museum in Slovakia, denied that the division or that Ukrainians took part in any brutalities committed against the Slovak people at this time.
At the end of WWII The Ukrainian soldiers were interned in Rimini, Italy, in the area controlled by Polish II Corps forces. The UNA commander Pavlo Shandruk requested for a meeting with Polish general W?adys?aw Anders in London, and asked him to protect the army against the deportation to Soviet Union. Despite the Soviet pressure, Anders managed to protect Ukrainian soldiers, as the former citizens of the Second Republic of Poland. This, together with the intervention of the Vatican saved its members from deportation to the USSR. Bishop Buchko of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church had appealed to Pope Pius XII to intervene on behalf of the division, whom he described as "good Catholics and fervent anti-Communists". Due to Vatican intervention, the British authorities changed the status of Division members from POW to surrendered enemy personnel and the Polish II Corps declined their deportation to Soviet Union. 176 soldiers of the division joined W?adys?aw Anders's Polish army. In 1947, former soldiers of SS "Galizien" were allowed to emigrate to Canada and to the United Kingdom. The names of about 7,100 former soldiers of SS "Galizien" admitted to the UK have been stored in the so-called "Rimini List". Despite several requests of various lobby groups, the details of the list have never been publicly released. Only in 2003 the anti-terrorist branch of Scotland Yard launched a massive investigation of the people from the list by cross-referencing NHS patient, social security and pension records. However the order to release confidential medical records was met with an outcry from civil liberties groups.
A documentary on the History Channel last year took up this story and spoke to many families of Ukraine descent living in the UK, they all told the same story, that their parents, grandparents and survivors of the war that had settled in the UK after WWII having come here because they had served in the SS, had they stayed in the Ukraine they believed the Russians would have killed them all in reprisal and that many people in the Ukraine would have helped. The government could not supress the testimony of the relatives in the way they could supress the release of documentation.
A Division is made up of a number of Battalions, one of which the UK agreed to re-house as did other nations with other Battalions.
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
My opinion of Nelson Mandela, a great man who did things he probably regretted in the belief that this was the only course of action available to him at the time, his actions in later life showed him to, at the very least, have his heart in the right place and wanting peace but prepared to fight for that peace.
Agreed.
Quote by MidsCouple24
My view of what Sir Winston Churchill and Harry Truman did in authorising the killing of civilians carte blanche during WWII, I would have done the same thing, if someone invades the Country I have sworn to defend I would use any force necessary to defeat them and protect my family and fellow countrymen.
Agreed, but this is what I don't get. You've taken the thread off on a complete tangent arguing that Churchill and Truman are mass murderers, yet you don't actually believe that yourself!
Quote by MidsCouple24
the accused terrorist Bin Laden was never convicted of a crime but was shot and killed during an attack on his home by US Forces, now personally I think it was a great day, but he was shot as a civilian presumed innocent until proven guilty !
Once again, you appear to be at odds with yourself here, and creating yet another spin off thread arguing with yourself. Bin Laden was a terrorist and was at the time of his death one of, if not the, most wanted man in the world.
Quote by Trevaunance
We as the present day holders of this planet have no right to second guess the actions or decisions of the past. We did not live through it and our laws, social restrictions or treaties cannot be applied retrospectively.
I was not present in South Africa in the sixties. I never experienced Apartheid. Those are facts. However, another fact is that I didn't sanction the use of lethal force either. I never raised an illegal military force against my government, I never sought military training in other countries, I never planted bombs at civilian targets and I most certainly never tried to claim that I should have all those things forgotten in the event of my later life being different.
A defence that the accused used at Nuremberg, "I was only obeying orders" an excuse that the people of Germany used after the war when questioned about the Holocaust, "It was the Nazi party in charge, I was just a civilian"
So what are you saying? Are you calling me a nazi, or some sort of collaborator? Are you seriously suggesting that because I wasn't in South Africa during the decade before I was born that I am somehow complicit with the actions of the SA government or the ANC? If you believe I have ever done any of the things I've denied then speak to the police straight away, if not apologise.
And as far as non emotional influence goes, then I'm sorry but unless you can prove that Mandela didn't do what he was convicted of then he is still a convicted man in my eyes.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Convicted because he was tried for the crime, Sir Winston Churchill though accused was never tried, Harry Truman though accused was never tried they were after all, the leaders of the Government who were victorious.
Stop clouding the issue. Was Mandela convicted or not?
As for the Ukrainian Army veterans that settled in the UK after the war, well that's fascinating stuff. I wish I had seen the documentary, but as it hasn't been repeated in years I will probably never get the chance
However there is a whole raft of information available on the Internet and I shall engorge myself of it
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
My opinion of Nelson Mandela, a great man who did things he probably regretted in the belief that this was the only course of action available to him at the time, his actions in later life showed him to, at the very least, have his heart in the right place and wanting peace but prepared to fight for that peace.
Agreed.
Quote by MidsCouple24
My view of what Sir Winston Churchill and Harry Truman did in authorising the killing of civilians carte blanche during WWII, I would have done the same thing, if someone invades the Country I have sworn to defend I would use any force necessary to defeat them and protect my family and fellow countrymen.
Agreed, but this is what I don't get. You've taken the thread off on a complete tangent arguing that Churchill and Truman are mass murderers, yet you don't actually believe that yourself!
Quote by MidsCouple24
the accused terrorist Bin Laden was never convicted of a crime but was shot and killed during an attack on his home by US Forces, now personally I think it was a great day, but he was shot as a civilian presumed innocent until proven guilty !
Once again, you appear to be at odds with yourself here, and creating yet another spin off thread arguing with yourself. Bin Laden was a terrorist and was at the time of his death one of, if not the, most wanted man in the world.
Quote by Trevaunance
We as the present day holders of this planet have no right to second guess the actions or decisions of the past. We did not live through it and our laws, social restrictions or treaties cannot be applied retrospectively.
I was not present in South Africa in the sixties. I never experienced Apartheid. Those are facts. However, another fact is that I didn't sanction the use of lethal force either. I never raised an illegal military force against my government, I never sought military training in other countries, I never planted bombs at civilian targets and I most certainly never tried to claim that I should have all those things forgotten in the event of my later life being different.
A defence that the accused used at Nuremberg, "I was only obeying orders" an excuse that the people of Germany used after the war when questioned about the Holocaust, "It was the Nazi party in charge, I was just a civilian"
So what are you saying? Are you calling me a nazi, or some sort of collaborator? Are you seriously suggesting that because I wasn't in South Africa during the decade before I was born that I am somehow complicit with the actions of the SA government or the ANC? If you believe I have ever done any of the things I've denied then speak to the police straight away, if not apologise.
And as far as non emotional influence goes, then I'm sorry but unless you can prove that Mandela didn't do what he was convicted of then he is still a convicted man in my eyes.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Convicted because he was tried for the crime, Sir Winston Churchill though accused was never tried, Harry Truman though accused was never tried they were after all, the leaders of the Government who were victorious.
Stop clouding the issue. Was Mandela convicted or not?
As for the Ukrainian Army veterans that settled in the UK after the war, well that's fascinating stuff. I wish I had seen the documentary, but as it hasn't been repeated in years I will probably never get the chance
However there is a whole raft of information available on the Internet and I shall engorge myself of it
