I have observed a couple of comments on the forums here and on other social network sites about the police imposing penalty points and fines for failing to clear car roofs of snow.
I cant find any source reference and it strikes me as a bit of an urban legend.
I wondered what you lot thought.
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Snow On Car Roofs
Sex God
Here:
Quote by Gufuncouple
It's a breach of rule 229 of the Highway Code:-
229
Before you set off
you MUST be able to see, so clear all snow and ice from all your windows
you MUST ensure that lights are clean and number plates are clearly visible and legible
make sure the mirrors are clear and the windows are demisted thoroughly
remove all snow that might fall off into the path of other road users
check your planned route is clear of delays and that no further snowfalls or severe weather are predicted
Which provides for a fine of £60 and 3 penalty points.
Quote by Freckledbird
Here:
It's a breach of rule 229 of the Highway Code:-
229
Before you set off
you MUST be able to see, so clear all snow and ice from all your windows
you MUST ensure that lights are clean and number plates are clearly visible and legible
make sure the mirrors are clear and the windows are demisted thoroughly
remove all snow that might fall off into the path of other road users
check your planned route is clear of delays and that no further snowfalls or severe weather are predicted
Which provides for a fine of £60 and 3 penalty points.
Bugger, beat me to it.
www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/viewtopic/347384.html
Dave_Notts
Master of Sex
So I can get a fine and points for not looking at a weather forecast before I go out now?
Sex God
Quote by Jewlnmart
So I can get a fine and points for not looking at a weather forecast before I go out now?
No, you have to make sure your car is clear of snow that might cause a problem for you or another driver, before you set off driving.
Master of Sex
So how do we know which bits of the highway code are just guidance and which bits are enforcable by law?
Sex God
Quote by Jewlnmart
So how do we know which bits of the highway code are just guidance and which bits are enforcable by law?
I'd suggest following it anyway, as it's likely that if you break any of the rules within it, you'd be in trouble of some sort. Making sure your car is not presenting a problem to you or other drivers is just common sense anyway.
In the highway code the words MUST and MUST NOT are used to indicate legal requirements.
You will not the code does not say you MUST clear the snow off the roof. The bold bits quoted relate to the items that say MUST.
Therefore I still think this roof snow clearing malarkey and police initiatives is an urban legend.
You will not the code does not say you MUST clear the snow off the roof. The bold bits quoted relate to the items that say MUST.
Therefore I still think this roof snow clearing malarkey and police initiatives is an urban legend.
Quote by Ben_welshminx
In the highway code the words MUST and MUST NOT are used to indicate legal requirements.
You will not the code does not say you MUST clear the snow off the roof.
Therefore I still think this roof snow clearing malarkey and police initiatives is an urban legend.
The problem here is that nobody knows underwhat law the police will issue a ticket.
Please note: The bit of law I am stating is made up but you'll get my drift in a moment.
Under the Road Traffic Act it states that it is an offence to obstruct other road users. This is what they charge the person with or give a ticket.
Now what is an obstruction? This is where guides, initiatives, policies or codes come into play. They show it was an obstruction as the code gives clear guidelines to roadusers on what could cause an obstruction, in this case snow from your vehicle. This is why legislation is usually a few pages but the codes are half a rain forest. They can put more detail in. So you don't get a ticket for breaking the code......you get the ticket for breaking the law, who refer to the code for examples.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
From :
'Many of the rules in the Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence. An explanation of the abbreviations can be found in 'The road user and the law'.
Although failure to comply with the other rules of the Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see 'The road user and the law') to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’.
Knowing and applying the rules contained in The Highway Code could significantly reduce road casualties. Cutting the number of deaths and injuries that occur on our roads every day is a responsibility we all share. The Highway Code can help us discharge that responsibility.'
Just because it doesn't say 'must' or 'must not', does not mean that you can disregard it. Like I said before, most of it is just common sense anyway. People shouldn't have to consult the Highway Code, to know that they really should make their car safe to drive and not pose a risk for other road users.
'Many of the rules in the Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence. An explanation of the abbreviations can be found in 'The road user and the law'.
Although failure to comply with the other rules of the Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see 'The road user and the law') to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’.
Knowing and applying the rules contained in The Highway Code could significantly reduce road casualties. Cutting the number of deaths and injuries that occur on our roads every day is a responsibility we all share. The Highway Code can help us discharge that responsibility.'
Just because it doesn't say 'must' or 'must not', does not mean that you can disregard it. Like I said before, most of it is just common sense anyway. People shouldn't have to consult the Highway Code, to know that they really should make their car safe to drive and not pose a risk for other road users.
My point is the police have not issued any tickets nor have they suddenly instigated an initiative to do so. However these forums and other sites seem to spreading the rumour that they have.
I have racked my brains and cant think of any piece of traffic legislation that would cover not clearing the roof. Causing an obstruction just doesn't cut the mustard in my view.
I have racked my brains and cant think of any piece of traffic legislation that would cover not clearing the roof. Causing an obstruction just doesn't cut the mustard in my view.
Sex God
And I do know of someone who was prosecuted because their windscreen was not clear (they had only used the wipers to clear snow, rather than clearing the full screen) and they caused an accident because they couldn't see another car turning at a junction.
Sex God
Quote by Ben_welshminx
My point is the police have not issued any tickets nor have they suddenly instigated an initiative to do so. However these forums and other sites seem to spreading the rumour that they have.
I have racked my brains and cant think of any piece of traffic legislation that would cover not clearing the roof. Causing an obstruction just doesn't cut the mustard in my view.
But if there's snow blowing off your roof, it could cause problems for a car driving behind you. So that would be obstructing their view.
Master of Sex
As all the other regulations mentioned in the highway code rule relate to tax, vehicle registration and lighting, it must be something squirrelled away in the 'Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986'. Unfortunatly this is not available online.
There wont.
Quoted from the highway code.
"Many of the rules in the Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence. An explanation of the abbreviations can be found in 'The road user and the law'."
Quoted from the highway code.
"Many of the rules in the Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence. An explanation of the abbreviations can be found in 'The road user and the law'."
Sex God
Quote by Jewlnmart
As all the other regulations mentioned in the highway code rule relate to tax, vehicle registration and lighting, it must be something squirrelled away in the 'Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986'. Unfortunatly this is not available online.
The full Highway Code can be downloaded from here:
The part that's already been quoted, is on page 67. It relates to driving in adverse weather conditions.
Sexpert
When I did my HGV test (15yrs ago) it was made absolutely clear that I was in charge and control of anything I and my vehicle did.
The case my instructor used to press the point home was of a lorry driver who was prosecuted for manslaughter when he went round a roundabout and the 2inches of ice on the roof of the 40foot trailer went sliding off to the side and right onto a car next to him. Killing the driver.
Snow on a roof of a car would be similar to an unsafe load; You wouldn't put half a cubic metre of feathers on your roof and try and drive around.
Obviously strapped down and in a duvet it would be ok
The case my instructor used to press the point home was of a lorry driver who was prosecuted for manslaughter when he went round a roundabout and the 2inches of ice on the roof of the 40foot trailer went sliding off to the side and right onto a car next to him. Killing the driver.
Snow on a roof of a car would be similar to an unsafe load; You wouldn't put half a cubic metre of feathers on your roof and try and drive around.
Obviously strapped down and in a duvet it would be ok
Quote by Ben_welshminx
Fair point del, I aint arguing that huge accumulations of snow are NOT inconvenient or dangerous, simply that there is no police initiative to clamp down on lazy motorists nor indeed any specific law requiring the removal of snow from vehicle roofs.
You are confusing yourself with the reqirement or need for a specific law about snow on the roof.
You will find that the story that Dereck refered to, the chap was charged with manslaughter. There is no mention in the manslaughter law about trucks, ice or pedestrians. You need to let go of the need to see it in black and white saying no snow on your roof as you won't see it. Very similar about drinking out of a can or holding a cigarette. Nothing in the law either. It may say have to be in control at all times, that is how they can be chargeable offenses.
Dave_Notts
In edit: found it
that is the cover all piece of legislation. The bit that says "if he uses a motor vehicle on a road when the condition of the motor vehicle is such that the use of the motor vehicle involves a danger of injury to any person". Now that could mean bloody anything, including snow and ice on the roof. The only people who can interpret it is the courts, so to prove that it isn't you would have to kill or injure someone and then argue your case in court.
As far as I am concerned I would just swipe the snow off and not worry about it.
Quote by Ben_welshminx
So if I can summarise:
The police are NOT handing out fines and penalty points to motorists with snowy roofs.
It is possible to be charged with something if a snowy roof causes injury or death.
Have I got it right?
Can I have a biscuit.
Emphatically NO!
"...if he uses a motor vehicle on a road when the condition of the motor vehicle is such that the use of the motor vehicle involves a danger of injury to any person" does not require the Police to prove that "injury" actually occurred just that, subjectively, a danger of injury to any person occurred.
As I see it, the burden of proof would then rest on the accused to prove otherwise.
Sex God
Orgasminator
Having spoken to a Traffic Officer:-
to quote..
"if an officer perceives that the quantity of snow on the vehicle constitutes a danger to other road users, then the driver may be stopped and cautioned under the RTA for 'diving without due care and attention', it is also an offence to drive with a bonnet full of snow under the RTA as this could obstruct forward vision of the driver and is treated in the same way as an incorrectly defrosted window. The same law applies to windows that are excessively dirty, windows that are covered with a film to restrict light, or the incorrect placement of a tax disk or other sticker which may impair the drivers vision."
to quote..
"if an officer perceives that the quantity of snow on the vehicle constitutes a danger to other road users, then the driver may be stopped and cautioned under the RTA for 'diving without due care and attention', it is also an offence to drive with a bonnet full of snow under the RTA as this could obstruct forward vision of the driver and is treated in the same way as an incorrectly defrosted window. The same law applies to windows that are excessively dirty, windows that are covered with a film to restrict light, or the incorrect placement of a tax disk or other sticker which may impair the drivers vision."
Quote by Ben_welshminx
So if I can summarise:
The police are NOT handing out fines and penalty points to motorists with snowy roofs.
It is possible to be charged with something if a snowy roof causes injury or death.
Have I got it right?
Can I have a biscuit.
Two police authorities have issued the following statements regarding snow on the roof after saying they are not clamping down or having an operation. However:
The Road Policing Unit said that there is no specific legislation on driving with snow on the roof of a vehicle, however if it slips over the windscreen, or flies into the path of another car, it could leave the driver open to being penalised for driving without due consideration, dangerous driving, not being in proper control of the vehicle, not having a full view ahead and windows not being sufficiently clean.
and
However we urge all drivers to drive with care and ensure their vehicle is roadworthy before setting out.
If there is an excessive amount of snow on a vehicle's roof it could cause visibility problems if it shifts down over the windscreen of the vehicle or cause problems to other road users if it lands on their vehicle. Such a vehicle could be classed as being in a dangerous condition.
So if any vehicle fits the above criteria then they will take appropriate action. This could mean making you clear your roof there and then, fines or reporting you to the courts. All are a possibility but each offence will be looked at on a case by case basis.
Therefore................you can't have your biscuit as a) nobody has to be injured or killed and b) as Dereck said there has already been a case where a lorry driver was charged with manslaughter for killing someone.
Dave_Notts