I am reading about social conformity and it started me thinking about how it affects the lives that we live.
It has made me realise that in society today, social norms affect every area of our lives, ranging from the cultural norms of how we dress to societies' norms of how we express (or not) our sexuality.
I started thinking about social conformity and sexuality when I read a couples advert yesterday. The advert explained the couples do's and dont's, and explained the need for total discretion.
In modern day life, why should we have to hide our sexuality and swinging from those who are not involved in it? Why the big secret? When you think of the word "secret", it implies something sordid that should be kept under wraps. My sexuality is a big part of me, so why can I not tell my mother that I am bisexual and I find certain other women attractive?
Why? Sometimes I think sexuality has come a long away where gay and lesbian relationships are out in the open, other times, I feel times have not changed since the 40's.
Who in society makes the norms that segregates swinging to a seperate chatroom? Or swinging clubs that are on industrial estates as to not bother the general public? Or munches in pubs where at times we are allegedly attending someones birthday party? Why can't we be who and what we are, where ever that may be, without fear of violating the social norms that could lead to dissapproval?
Unfortunately, we are all part of that society that makes these unwritten rules of social norms, we live by the rules we all endorse, publicly or privately.
Nuff said, I will step down from my box and go back to my books xxx
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Social Conformity & Swinging
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Well, the only ones who can change this is.. us.
We are 'out' to pretty much everyone and have been very lucky, in this. Oh, apart from the time R got hit at my works Christmas bash. The guy who did that would probably hit someone for being of a different race, mind.
As with all forms of bigotry, they are only beginning to be quashed where the 'minority' stand up to be counted.
We are 'out' to pretty much everyone and have been very lucky, in this. Oh, apart from the time R got hit at my works Christmas bash. The guy who did that would probably hit someone for being of a different race, mind.
As with all forms of bigotry, they are only beginning to be quashed where the 'minority' stand up to be counted.
Sex God
You're not doing a psych degree are you, be any chance? 
Some very good questions there.
Historicaly I think a lot our rules of conformity were made by the Church (hisorical referances also show that the very people who made these rules often dont seem to have thought that the rules applied to them). Many of the rules of religion were , at the time , necessary to withould a society that was safe to live in. These rules have been handed down over the generations.
Nowadays with fewer people actively participating in the Christian religion in ths country it appears to me that the newpapers seem to have taken it upon themselves to police our behaviour and by buying the rags they produce we are giving them the freedom to comdem and control us?
Historicaly I think a lot our rules of conformity were made by the Church (hisorical referances also show that the very people who made these rules often dont seem to have thought that the rules applied to them). Many of the rules of religion were , at the time , necessary to withould a society that was safe to live in. These rules have been handed down over the generations.
Nowadays with fewer people actively participating in the Christian religion in ths country it appears to me that the newpapers seem to have taken it upon themselves to police our behaviour and by buying the rags they produce we are giving them the freedom to comdem and control us?
I try to maintain a balance between being as open as I can be, and leaving myself open to crap I don`t have the emotional energy to deal with. My kids don`t know about our lifestyle simply because
a) What kid wants to know about their parents sex life (ick) and
b) I`m have enough on my plate trying to teach them about vanilla sex.
That said, my eldest knows that most of our friends are from this site, and has a tolerance toward all sexualities and sexual lifestyles. I am confident that the attitude we are raising our kids with now will go a long way toward changing the expectations society has one or two generations from now.
I`m much happier focusing on the future generations rather than the past ones, they have much more potential.
(have not drunk enough coffee to speculate on the questions, sorry!)
Venusxxx
a) What kid wants to know about their parents sex life (ick) and
b) I`m have enough on my plate trying to teach them about vanilla sex.
That said, my eldest knows that most of our friends are from this site, and has a tolerance toward all sexualities and sexual lifestyles. I am confident that the attitude we are raising our kids with now will go a long way toward changing the expectations society has one or two generations from now.
I`m much happier focusing on the future generations rather than the past ones, they have much more potential.
(have not drunk enough coffee to speculate on the questions, sorry!)
Venusxxx
In modern day life, why should we have to hide our sexuality and swinging from those who are not involved in it? Why the big secret? When you think of the word "secret", it implies something sordid that should be kept under wraps. My sexuality is a big part of me, so why can I not tell my mother that I am bisexual and I find certain other women attractive?
I used to feel odd about discussing sex openly with one group of friends (swingers), while not discussing it with others (non-swingers). This used to make me feel like swinging was some sort of sordid secret I hid from non-swingers.
Then someone posted a question on the forum "Do you tell your friends IRL that you are swingers?" And I thought - no, we don't. But then, we never discussed our sex life with our friends before swinging either. So what has changed there???
Our bedroom activities are no more or less of a secret now than they were before. - More importantly than that, our bedroom activities are no more or less of a secret than our friends bedroom activities are. (talking purely about non-swinging friends)
Nothing has changed really - I was just sulking because I had a new toy and couldn't share it with everyone I wanted to.
:wink: lhk
Kat
some good points raised here.. vix is right we can all change this.. together we can be strong. we can say we swing and say it and feel proud.. im feeling a meet in hyde park coming on......
i believe that swingers are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the swingers laughter remind us how we used to be
i believe that swingers are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the swingers laughter remind us how we used to be
Sex God
Blimey this is a live one !
Needs a two volume book to answer really . For what its worth my two penneth.
I think some of the comments about decline in Christian values are part of the story . We shouldnt forget of course that christian regulations is many if not most cases were based on the practical realities of holding together a working societal group .
Our system has until relatively recently been based on the building block of the nuclear and extended family , but of course we know that social and economic factors have led to a breakdown in that as a norm . At the momentt we all seem to be in a state of flux , caught between a changing -some say outdated -set of rules and a new structure in society. In the end of course our rules and hence society itself will adjust to the prevailing attitudes within it - but in my view there are always a hard core of basic human morals which simply must remain in order for people to live in an organised group or thing fall apart (ask the Romans).
Swinging is a difficult one , since it flys in the face of one of the strongest regulations that maintain the family group . In the past we may have looked at swingers as rebels or brave liberals , and certainly many of them see themselves that way today . I believe the recent upsurge in new attitudes to sexuality has had the reverse effect and in fact it has gone so far that now in many ways swinging is becoming a kind of conformity in itself . Those in society who strive to be modern and forward thinking 'liberal' for want of a better word , almost feel compelled to examine their attitudes to swinging and recreational sex for fear of appearing to have a closed mind.
Those who have been involved in swinging for a while will have noticed im sure a change in demographic and the increased involvement ( albeit sometimes just curiosity) of younger groups , and many pseudo intellectuals and acdemics who may previously have merely dismissed it as abhorant behaviour .
Im typing and starting to bore myself , and I have just been brought a cuppa tea , so ill stop . Think on though , ultimately I think swinging will become acceptable as society replaces itself with new standards - but change isnt always a good thing and wether accepting something as the norm , simply because alot of people like doing it is right is a big question .
Peace G
Needs a two volume book to answer really . For what its worth my two penneth.
I think some of the comments about decline in Christian values are part of the story . We shouldnt forget of course that christian regulations is many if not most cases were based on the practical realities of holding together a working societal group .
Our system has until relatively recently been based on the building block of the nuclear and extended family , but of course we know that social and economic factors have led to a breakdown in that as a norm . At the momentt we all seem to be in a state of flux , caught between a changing -some say outdated -set of rules and a new structure in society. In the end of course our rules and hence society itself will adjust to the prevailing attitudes within it - but in my view there are always a hard core of basic human morals which simply must remain in order for people to live in an organised group or thing fall apart (ask the Romans).
Swinging is a difficult one , since it flys in the face of one of the strongest regulations that maintain the family group . In the past we may have looked at swingers as rebels or brave liberals , and certainly many of them see themselves that way today . I believe the recent upsurge in new attitudes to sexuality has had the reverse effect and in fact it has gone so far that now in many ways swinging is becoming a kind of conformity in itself . Those in society who strive to be modern and forward thinking 'liberal' for want of a better word , almost feel compelled to examine their attitudes to swinging and recreational sex for fear of appearing to have a closed mind.
Those who have been involved in swinging for a while will have noticed im sure a change in demographic and the increased involvement ( albeit sometimes just curiosity) of younger groups , and many pseudo intellectuals and acdemics who may previously have merely dismissed it as abhorant behaviour .
Im typing and starting to bore myself , and I have just been brought a cuppa tea , so ill stop . Think on though , ultimately I think swinging will become acceptable as society replaces itself with new standards - but change isnt always a good thing and wether accepting something as the norm , simply because alot of people like doing it is right is a big question .
Peace G
Sex God
Quote by Alex_Female
You're not doing a psych degree are you, be any chance?
Yes, you got it in one!
I thought that as well Blue. 
Quote by Silk and Big G
Swinging is a difficult one , since it flys in the face of one of the strongest regulations that maintain the family group.
Fascinating - maybe one day we'll have some stats on it. Although swinging appears to fly in the face of a regulation that binds the family group (monogamy) I wonder if this is the case. The implied threat to the family group is unfaithfulness/adultery leading to separation. I suspect that swinging perhaps actually reduces the likelihood of this happening.
I read an interesting phillosphical argument once that suggested that the natural evolution of the family group would be to an extended group. Swinging increases levels of trust on one very fundamental level - that of sexual relations. Long may it flourish.
Sex God
Some things change in the Church of England, but they still manage constantly to get themselves in a tizzy over sex. I am a church member and sometimes in discussion groups among church members I defend "pornography" and "kinky sex" by pointing out that if activities are happening between consenting adults in private there is nothing illegal. I think I'm becoming identified to a few people as someone who has very liberal opinions on sexual matters, but that's far enough for me, I would not go further and tell anyone that I have indulged in swinging.
The Church of England is also currently indulging in a shameful compromise on the subject of tolerance of homosexuality. The archbishop, who in theory is a liberal on social matters, seems not to have the guts to stand up to anti-liberal factions. Everyone knows that there are gay men and women among C of E clergy, but however good they are at their jobs, they are apparently not good enough to be promoted to bishops.
Sorry I've hardly mentioned swinging Alex, but just put down a few random thoughts. We in SH expect a credit in the bibliography!
:lol:
Mike.
The Church of England is also currently indulging in a shameful compromise on the subject of tolerance of homosexuality. The archbishop, who in theory is a liberal on social matters, seems not to have the guts to stand up to anti-liberal factions. Everyone knows that there are gay men and women among C of E clergy, but however good they are at their jobs, they are apparently not good enough to be promoted to bishops.
Sorry I've hardly mentioned swinging Alex, but just put down a few random thoughts. We in SH expect a credit in the bibliography!
:lol: Mike.
Sex God
I understand you arguament Chris . I suppose your theory of stronger extended family groups would apply in the case of genuine polyamory where some level of commitment as a family group is made . Of course the notion of monogamy as essential to family stability was considered important enough to make a rule previous to efficient birth control . Paradoxically though single parenthood is still on the increase massively .
Swinging as its practiced and discussed here though is a world away from polyamory , and is about mostly recreational sex . Its a wonderful concept that casual sex as a pressure valve to prevent unfaithfulness is a reality , much like the oft used arguament in favour of prostitution to prevent sex crime . In practice however the attitudes you suggest still have to exist in a society that in the main doesnt see it as conforming , so inevitably leads to external pressures . No matter how liberal we believe we are , we were brought up in a place and time where such behaviour wasnt acceptable and as such we cant help but drag many of the subconcious attitudes instilled in us along with our new found 'freedoms'.
Apart from anything else it simply isnt true , I cant and wont quote figures because there arent any , but in my experience of the swinging world ( which is quite substantial) the incidence of long term happy stable relationships and successful regular swinging are very rare . Unpopular view perhaps , but can only comment on the folks that I have met over the years .
Peace x
Swinging as its practiced and discussed here though is a world away from polyamory , and is about mostly recreational sex . Its a wonderful concept that casual sex as a pressure valve to prevent unfaithfulness is a reality , much like the oft used arguament in favour of prostitution to prevent sex crime . In practice however the attitudes you suggest still have to exist in a society that in the main doesnt see it as conforming , so inevitably leads to external pressures . No matter how liberal we believe we are , we were brought up in a place and time where such behaviour wasnt acceptable and as such we cant help but drag many of the subconcious attitudes instilled in us along with our new found 'freedoms'.
Apart from anything else it simply isnt true , I cant and wont quote figures because there arent any , but in my experience of the swinging world ( which is quite substantial) the incidence of long term happy stable relationships and successful regular swinging are very rare . Unpopular view perhaps , but can only comment on the folks that I have met over the years .
Peace x
btw the book I had in mind on the evolution of the family unit was Shulamith Firestone's The Dialectic of Sex. On the other hand, I think perhaps most of society's restrictions (in the sense of non-rational taboos rather than legal ones or those socially evolved such as etiquette) can be traced to religious influences and the degree to which the state at any time tolerates them (or fails to separate state and church). There's a wealth of literature available on this.
Quote by Silk and Big G
I suppose your theory of stronger extended family groups would apply in the case of genuine polyamory where some level of commitment as a family group is made .
Not my theory actually (see above) - but polyamory is not necessarily a factor. The main advantage has to be based on advantages to the child. At the moment, it is too easy for a child to play off one parent against the other, there is only one main example of each gender as role model, and the main official bond and commitment is not towards the child but between the two adults. But seeing how the present 'norm' can or will 'evolve' is another matter. I think people generally may start to take child rearing more seriously and evolve set-ups that don't necessarily just involve two adults who happen to mate regularly. Adoption is the first main development from biological commitment, and there are studies that have shown lesbian parents produce very well balanced children (the original study had hoped to prove the opposite of course!)
Maybe swinging won't play a big role in the evolution of social units - or maybe it's too early to assess the strengths and weaknesses of the movement in societal terms . . .
Good to get your thoughts on this - many thanks - I think my view of swinging is coloured by the fact that I have had almost totally 'good' experiences, whereas someone else who had been on the scene longer once said to me that we are not necessarily a more tolerant lot ;-)
:violin: :swingingchair: :kick: :rascal: :swingingchair: :violin:
Quote by Silk and Big G
Apart from anything else it simply isnt true , I cant and wont quote figures because there arent any , but in my experience of the swinging world ( which is quite substantial) the incidence of long term happy stable relationships and successful regular swinging are very rare . Unpopular view perhaps , but can only comment on the folks that I have met over the years .
Peace x
Our experience of the scene is very different. Most of the couples we know well are in very stable relationships. Some have been swinging since the 70s. There are obviously some couples who might be better concentrating on their relationship rather than playing, but in general we see our swinging friends as being closer to each other than most of our non-swinging friends.
Quote by Alex_Female
Why? Sometimes I think sexuality has come a long away where gay and lesbian relationships are out in the open, other times, I feel times have not changed since the 40's.
I agree with this statement 110%, gay and lesbian couples seem to be allowed to have open relationships whereas with heterosexual couples it's frowned upon.
Seems to me that's society becoming conditioned to accept this sort of thing from these minority groups, so perhaps it will become acceptable for others in time???
I can kinda see the point of why people wont tell their families maybe having an older generation might be shocked by it although not always the case and as much as I myself think that "no" youre not doing anything wrong and that its better out in the open rather than ignored and swept under the carpet not everyone will feel the same!
I personally prefer things out in the open, not many of my pals know about my interest in swinging although never say never and tbh Im not the sorta person who has a lot of close friends although my mother knows and man am I so glad we even get a laugh abou tit which is good haha was out trying a dress on last week and the cheeky bitch made a remark about how i shouold buy it as it has easy access!
Who knows how much society will continue to change as the years go on with regards the attitude towards swinging etc I think sometimes it also depends what area you come from I moved only a couple of miles last year and noticed differences in attitudes to different things some positive some negative!! Suppose its the wild card yet to be played really??
I personally prefer things out in the open, not many of my pals know about my interest in swinging although never say never and tbh Im not the sorta person who has a lot of close friends although my mother knows and man am I so glad we even get a laugh abou tit which is good haha was out trying a dress on last week and the cheeky bitch made a remark about how i shouold buy it as it has easy access!
Who knows how much society will continue to change as the years go on with regards the attitude towards swinging etc I think sometimes it also depends what area you come from I moved only a couple of miles last year and noticed differences in attitudes to different things some positive some negative!! Suppose its the wild card yet to be played really??
Sex God
Quote by Vix
Well, the only ones who can change this is.. us.
If only that were true. But I don't think it is.
I agree with the sentiments that the established Churches have formulated the behaviour patterns, which don't encompass swinging. But I think also we need to remember that not all people are as mature and well balanced as some of the couples hereabouts. The sort of pressures swinging can impose on those who have not thought it through or do not have the intelligence to cope with it can be very destructive. Hence, possibly, society's wariness of swinging.
Alex - good thread!
Sex God
I don't need to keep secrets, on the other hand I do have to respect other people's privacy, so while I don't exactly hide my private life, I don't exactly shout it from the rooftops either. Most people who know me are aware that I am single, adult, and not a monk. I'm sure they can join up the dots by themselves, but if they're nosey enough to want to know where I went and what I did last weekend, I might tell them, but if they ask me with whom, "no one you would know" is the standard answer. If they're really curious and I think they can handle it, I have occasionally pointed people in the direction of this site.
Sex God
Quote by VenusnMars
Most people who know me are aware that I am single, adult, and not a monk.
:shock:
Venusxxx
OK, adult according to law. If you have a contrary opinion, just let me know and I bet I can hit you with my dummy from here. :P
Please excuse Venus for the hijack.
Carry on. ;)
Good points there Alex.
We wouldnt have problems with it with certain people,but as for our parents-they never would agree with could possibly ruin the fantastic relationships we have with them.
Yes it would be great to be completely open with it and know that people wouldnt judge us for you just know that they a shame but im sure in 50 odd years time swinging will be much more the norm
We wouldnt have problems with it with certain people,but as for our parents-they never would agree with could possibly ruin the fantastic relationships we have with them.
Yes it would be great to be completely open with it and know that people wouldnt judge us for you just know that they a shame but im sure in 50 odd years time swinging will be much more the norm
Quote by westerross
Well, the only ones who can change this is.. us.
If only that were true. But I don't think it is.
I agree with the sentiments that the established Churches have formulated the behaviour patterns, which don't encompass swinging. But I think also we need to remember that not all people are as mature and well balanced as some of the couples hereabouts. The sort of pressures swinging can impose on those who have not thought it through or do not have the intelligence to cope with it can be very destructive. Hence, possibly, society's wariness of swinging.
Alex - good thread!
Personally I get a little tired of the `responsibilty` of Swingers to promote, or to stay away from the media etc. It`s my sex life, and I`ll treat it with whatever discretion I see fit (at the same time of course respecting the privacy of others, as Ice points out)
Yes, it is annoying when Swingers are portrayed negatively for whatever reasons, but I don`t feel the need to carry a banner, but if people want to, then good for them. I think things are beginning to change now, it just won`t happen overnight.
Venusxxx
Quote by Ice Pie
Most people who know me are aware that I am single, adult, and not a monk.
:shock:
Venusxxx
OK, adult according to law. If you have a contrary opinion, just let me know and I bet I can hit you with my dummy from here. :P
Please excuse Venus for the hijack.
Carry on. ;)
beat me beat me
:lol: :lol: On a more serious note and I'm sorry i'm not as eliquent as most people.......
I darn't tell my parents or family i'm bi-sexual I would never live it down, same with swinging......my families views are rather old fashioned. The upbringing i had was armed forces and they are even more 'heads in the ground' than most people (Sgt Bilko can verify this......Thou married quarters was a haven for sexual exploits). If anything like swinging/affairs/bi-sexual/gay/lesbian came out you brought the forces into dis-repute and it was a booting out offence. Therefore I can understand their values when I was growing up, especially as some members of my family were also in the military police. Unfortunately the attitude is still part of the dark ages; but as that is how I was raised I feel my whole lifestyle should be shrouded in secrecy.
Roll on the day I can finally be open and honest about who I am.
Sex God
I think Venus has a great point, it is us as adukts who shape the lives of our children, and we should be allowing them to see the World, or rather England in a different Light.
I also happen to be a Naturist, and we are represented by the BN, who seem to think that we as Naturists shouldn't have sex, and are anti swingers.
Our Children were brought up in a Naturist Environment, we live at a Naturist site. Pat and I have recently parted company, but I am still involved in their lives, and we still live in a Naturist establishment.
Strangely without getting too political, a lot of the BN people who advocate this sexless life are single men.
We need to move forward and away from the Victorian attitudes that Great Britian Holds so dear.
Oops Sorry didn't mean to go on so.
John
Embarassed Naturist Swinger NOT.
I also happen to be a Naturist, and we are represented by the BN, who seem to think that we as Naturists shouldn't have sex, and are anti swingers.
Our Children were brought up in a Naturist Environment, we live at a Naturist site. Pat and I have recently parted company, but I am still involved in their lives, and we still live in a Naturist establishment.
Strangely without getting too political, a lot of the BN people who advocate this sexless life are single men.
We need to move forward and away from the Victorian attitudes that Great Britian Holds so dear.
Oops Sorry didn't mean to go on so.
John
Embarassed Naturist Swinger NOT. What I found difficult to understand, was the urge I had to tell people about swinging. Why on earth did I want to tell somebody we were swinging, if it was not someone we would have discussed our sex life with anyway? It was almost like a need to confess.
We have friends who smoke dope at home. Before we went round for dinner for the first time, they explained that they smoked dope and asked if we objected. They felt no urge to tell us earlier just so that we would know - only when it affected our lives. Up until then, it was none of our business.
All the comments about reactions of friends, family, neighbours and society in general are quite right - but in the end, that is not why we (Kit and I) do not discuss swinging with them. The reason we don't discuss our sex life with them is the same reason they do not discuss their sex lives with us. It is none of their/our business.
lhk
Kat
Quote by Horous
I think Venus has a great point, it is us as adukts who shape the lives of our children, and we should be allowing them to see the World, or rather England in a different Light.
I also happen to be a Naturist, and we are represented by the BN, who seem to think that we as Naturists shouldn't have sex, and are anti swingers.
Our Children were brought up in a Naturist Environment, we live at a Naturist site. Pat and I have recently parted company, but I am still involved in their lives, and we still live in a Naturist establishment.
Strangely without getting too political, a lot of the BN people who advocate this sexless life are single men.
We need to move forward and away from the Victorian attitudes that Great Britian Holds so dear.
Oops Sorry didn't mean to go on so.
John
Christ. I hate it when minority groups try to promote diversity by stagnating it amongst their own groups, just so they can all march under a neatly organised banner.
How about some room for individuality?!
Venusxxx
