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neilinleeds
Over 90 days ago
Bisexual Male, 56
0 miles · West Yorkshire

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So you believe that if we legalise drugs in the UK the Taliban will close up shop and stop producing them and our troops will not have to go there knowing that we will be producing them in the UK instead of buying off them ? The drug barons of South America will become normal farmers, the Chinese drug lords will find new employment that is not against the law ? after all we wouldn't need to import drugs if the government backed them we could just ask some of our entrepeneurs to open up factories and farms here in Britain, Virgin Cocain, Bernard Mathews Linconshire Weed, La Senza Acid House.

You miss the point here I think Jed. Coca leaves and opium poppies have little intrinsic value. Ask the dirt poor susbsistence farmers forced to grow it, either by threat of violence or by circumstance, these crops being marginally more profitable than other subsistence crops they could be growing. The real value is added by middle tier producers who process the raw material into cocaine and heroin, yes? The value added here derives entirely from what a kilo of either will sell for on the streets of the U.S. and Europe. That price is kept artificially high by prohibition in terms of the risks to black marketeers moving it who want a substantial return on their investment to offset those risks, and in terms of what the market will bear to pay for a product that's always in demand. We know already Heroin addicts will pay just about anything for the stuff. Legalise it, including production of it and you change the dynamic completely, the economics of prohibition go right out the window. This has to be done globally, locally will not work but once the trade is legalised what makes coca leaves and opium poppies different to any other cash crop bought and sold on the open market? Wheres the incentive for the murderous criminal operations who run the trade once you take away their profit margin?
We've not even started on what happens when other countries pull the rug from under the Afghanistans and South / Central Americas of this world by starting up production themselves. It's my understanding pharmaceutical heroin ( diamorphine ) for medicinal use by the NHS is produced from poppies grown legally, mostly in this country? There was no real problem with magic mushrooms being sold openly before the ban, most were U.K. produced grown on small-ish scale in terrariums. Cannabis in the U.K. is almost entirely home grown skunk these days, being much lower risk to dealers than they'd otherwise face trying to import the stuff. Legalise weed altogether I think you'd find quite a lot of users would produce the stuff themselves investing in a couple hundred quids worth of hydroponics. Many do already, no criminal gangs involved whatsoever. Most of your newer synthetics are coming out of Chinese chemical factories where production of them is legal. Where does that leave your argument now?
This is all thought experiment Jed, I'm not seriously suggesting we tear up all the laws and jump feet first into some kind of free for all. I'm genuinely interested in other views as to what might happen if we did that though. The drugs trade is not going to go away, no matter what we do. We know what the harms of prohibition are, you've touched on some yourself. If we cannot rid ourselves globally of these associated harms absolutely then the next best thing is harm reduction, isn't it. If it can be demonstrated that legalisation results in fewer harms than prohibition then that's a win, surely. You brought up morals. Which is the more moral course there?
The drugs trade is killing British Soldiers in Afghanistan, it is costing a fortune to British taxpayers, it is putting our Naval personnel around the world in danger, it is the cause of much of the petty crime (petty to those in authority not to victims) around the Country, responsible adult, no selfish attitude is my opinion.

Ummmmm, I think I did touch on this right back on page 1 with my first post on this very thread Jed, when I said "financing gangsters and putting guns on the street in this country, even more guns on the streets in the countries that produce them" and again on page 3 when I said "The ongoing damage the so-called drugs war in countries like Mexico is doing is also another reason why these treaties need looking at again". I'd argue prohibition is the cause of violence of this sort at home and abroad, not the drugs themselves, which has been my point throughout the thread. If the manufacture and sale of drugs were legal you'd remove it from the hands of criminal enterprises who use such violence to further their aim and protect their interests, wouldn't you?
To me your just another addict that fuels the flames of the problem.

Perhaps you missed one of the closing lines of the latest post where I said "as a responsible adult I'm not daft enough any more to risk being nicked with Class As". I suppose I should appreciate your forthrightness there, except that I can't possibly be an 'addict' ( a term which would be meaningless as far as the use of psychedelics referred to above goes anyway, psychedelics having no addictive potential ) because I don't use illegal drugs Jed, partly cos of the risk to myself as far as arrest goes, and partly cos I cannot in good conscience party away on Cocaine ( a shitty drug anyways ) or whatever knowing the damage done to other human beings in the countries that produce it just so I can 'enjoy' the privelege. Again though, this would not be an issue if the trade were legal. Consequence of prohibition again.
but attempting to justify breaking the law with morals is not going to work with me because morals are also about not breaking the law.

Ah, now that's a more interesting question. Is that always the case? If the law is unjust, do not citizens of good conscience have a duty to see that it is repealed, sometimes even by breaking the law to highlight its absurdity? I could cite Rosa Parks here perhaps. I'm not going to suggest the right to take drugs is a civil rights issue of that kind so noone need take me to task for doing so, but things are not always as black and white as you've made out, are they?
Quote by Suedehead
The second point regarding this is why Defra have used this flimsy evididence to proceed with the cull, i suggest it's down to money and the need to do something. I base this on nothing more than my thoughts but wouldn't be surprised if this is the short term, knee jerk cheapest option!

It does seem to defy all reason doesn't it. I'd conclude either they're sick of shelling out the compensation and in these times of austerity they're clutching at the single flimsy straw that might help them reduce that somewhat out of sheer desperation, or more likely they're just pandering to the farming industry in the hope of securing their vote for the next election. It can't be because this is the best course of action according to the science whichever way you look at it, can it?
Wonder if anyone can comment on this:

Massive jump in slaughter numbers from 2001 to 2002 and since, from 4 figure numbers to 5. Clearly that's not down to a sudden explosion in TB in 2002, it must be down to changes to the testing regime of some kind? What happened there then?
London, wouldn't normally just cut and paste from another thread like this, you deserve a personal reply, but only wrote it a fortnight's since and captures some of my thoughts on what NOT to do at least pretty exactly and equally applies here:
If you've never seen the way a lot of single guys in clubs behave, hanging around in packs following every fem or couple who walks by them or trying their luck hammering on doors that have been locked to stop 'em just walking in in the first place, prepare to be somewhat taken aback. Best way to stand out from that particular crowd is simply not to emulate them in any way. Just talk to people same as you'd talk to them anywhere else, see if you click with someone enough for them to wonder if there's a role for you anywhere but don't be disappointed if not. Comes with the territory, occupational hazard, but you might see the same couple again another visit and if they remember you as the relaxed, funny guy they chatted to before moving on last time they might just be more inclined to take a chance on you this time. Sounds obvious doesn't it, almost patronising even me trying to explain all this to another thinking, feeling adult, course you wouldn't dream of any of this loitering in packs, hammering on doors, making other people uncomfortable, completely pissing them off nonsense, but it will make sense when you see just how many guys seem incapable of grasping any of that. Stupid of them, useful to us, little self-selecting group of idiots nicely removing themselves from consideration by their behaviour and increasing the chances in our favour a little. ;)
Quote by Rogue_trader
The Randomised Badger Culling Trial :

Pages 23 and 24 of that document as a general summary of findings make for most enlighterning reading, don't they RT? rolleyes ;)
Quote by Rogue_trader
The Randomised Badger Culling Trial :

I still haven't quite grasped how even a limited cull in some areas even requiring that licences be issued by the Sec State can be said to be lawful? The report above, Krebs trial, et al, even the advice DEFRA has up on its website re: culling badgers and incidence of TB all suggesting you're looking at a 9-16% fall in new bovine TB infections at best, having to be quite selective with your evidence even to get that much tops. That's a pretty low return. No matter, Protection of Badgers Act 1992 section 10 gives the Sec. State the power to grant licences for disease control, no problem, all dead straightforward, no test of potential effectiveness of cull even required. Except . . .
The Animal Healt Act 1981 section 21 gives the Minister the power to authorise a cull for non-rabies infections like TB in badgers, but only insofar as a cull of badgers in that area is 'necessary in order to eliminate, or substantially reduce the incidence of, that disease in animals of any kind in the area'. The Protection Of Badgers Act powers kinda flow directly from this. Now, I don't see how a mere 16% tops reduction in new infections even if achievable can be said to be stubstantially reducing anything, still less so if it's nearer the 9% mark. 1 part in 8 or so is not what I understand substantial to mean. 40-50%, yeah that would be substantial, but 16? Come on. Serious.
Quote by foxylady2209
I learned more about genuine empathy and compassion for my fellow man from E and acid then I ever learned at Catholic school,

From what I have heard about Catholic School and teachings generally it is noithing about empathy and compassion and entirely about toeing a very narrow line and behavioural control based on guilt. And not even sensible 'I did that' kind of guilt - the general mysoginistic, woman-hating 'you are bad because you came out of a vagina' guilt.
I would imagine ANY positive emotional experience would be better than that.
Hmmmmmmm. Well yes, on reflection you may have a point there Foxy, you may well have a point. Possibly a bad example there as far as making all that much of a point at all goes now I think on it? Damn! lol
Realised earlier that we already have a model of sorts for decriminalisation in force at this very moment that had somehow prevously escaped me: the Temporary Class Drug Order I referred to on page one re: MXE / Methoxetamine. These orders have nothing whatsoever to say about simple posession. It remains entirely legal to posess a Temp Class Drug which is otherwise deemed to be a Class B controlled substance under the 1971 Misuse of Drugs Act, so long as for personal use only. It's concerned only with the supply side. A temporary measure only ( the clue is maybe in the name! :lol: ) prior to what is likely to be proper criminalisation under the MoDA once the 12 month temp ban is up so it's not intended as decriminalisation as such of course, it's obviously going in the other direction altogether but as a half-way house I see no reason why something similar shouldn't work equally well the other way? Probably completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand but struck me as something worth commenting on anyways, so I did, as you can see, obviously!
Personally I have never needed large amounts of alcohol or any amount of drugs to make me have a good time.

You often hear statements like this from people Mids who don't quite get that for many the motivations behind their drug use are way more complex than just wanting to have a good time. With psychedelics for instance then sure, some people will take acid / mushrooms / whatever just to get wasted and piss themselves laffin' at all the pretty shapes and colours, but there are others, who you might call the genuine psychonauts out there who take these drugs to explore the inner recesses of their own minds, playing around with the quite extraordinarily novel things they find it can do with itself with a little gentle persuasion.
There's an enormous difference between these two camps I think, the shallow eye-candy, shits and giggles crew in the first, and those who experience something really quite profound that changes them forever in the second. Me, I belong squarely in the second camp. I learned more about genuine empathy and compassion for my fellow man from E and acid then I ever learned at Catholic school, let's put it that way, and quite a bit about my sexuality though I could not accept that till a long time later. The danger here of course is that for some so profound a revelation will be more than they are able or willing to properly assimilate, and it is their fear of what they find there and difficulty acknowledging what lurks beneath the thin veneer of ego that leads to their distress. It is these people legislation is most intended to protect I believe. I though believe my consciousness is mine and mine alone, to manipulate as I see fit, as should be my right. Whether I do that with meditation, breath control, other magickal practices or psychedelic drugs is noone's business but mine. I do not see that as a responsible adult I should be prevented from doing so by others, but as a responsible adult I'm not daft enough any more to risk being nicked with Class As. It does quite piss me off I must admit.
Quote by On the Xmas Wishlist tread Lizaleanrob
id settle to see Steve and Neil overcome their demons wink

Damn, this just really caught me by surprise. Just had to step out the office a minute, was welling up FFS! Soft bugger. Must be a bit tired and emotional this morning, but not in that way. lol Cheers Rob, really appreciate that man. Best put an update up now eh?
Day 79 by my reckoning. The sober days are just piling up behind me at a ferocious pace at the minute, another 13 days and I'm calling that 3 months. Need to be careful I don't get too complacent with how plain sailing the thing is at the minute, keep some guard up for the day the cravings fire up out of nowhere to try and bite me on the arse. I'm ready for 'em though, they can just bring it on if they think they got game enough! Imma put them cravings down, you watch! :mrgreen:
Don't smack their arses FFS Lilith, you'll just encourage them! :P
Quote by Lilith
<<<< is wondering whether her previous post was too long for others to bother reading!! redface

Not at all. I felt like I disagreed with only some small bits of it, but I'm struggling to come up with a properly articulated reason why that makes sense. I'm aware that hands are tied by things like the 1961 Single Covention on Narcotics et al but I'm not convinced local decriminalisation is much more than a stop gap, or a finger in the proverbial dam. The background to the treaty(s) seems somewhat shady as far as US influence to protect their pharmaceutical industries goes, dumping most of the responsibilities on third world producers of raw organic materials for one, and two I'd need to do a lot more reading as to whether it's still fit for purpose given the explosion in synthetic psychoactives available more recently. These are the so-called research chemicals I referred to in the first post I made, largely building on work by Alexander Shulgin, David Nichols, underground chemists, etc that are now coming out of China's chemical industry by the tonne. This is a problem beyond containment by the kind of blanket bans provided for in the treaties I think because of the almost infinite number of possible psychoactives available for manufacture by these producers.
We've come a long way since 1961 as far as synthetics go, the trade there is perfectly legal in the main and is likely to be able to jump through whatever hoops the UN and nation states try to put in its way. The ongoing damage the so-called drugs war in countries like Mexico is doing is also another reason why these treaties need looking at again, in the hope that a more effective and sensible way of dealing with the more traditional drugs of abuse and the newer psychoactives can be found, whether on a global scale or nationally, leaving nation states free to respond to their particular local drug problems as they see fit, and is most effective, even if that means full legalisation across the board, unlikely as that is. Decriminalisation on a national level is a sticking plaster at best I think that doesn't get to the root of things at all.
This is probably very confused and needs a lot more work on the argument and some evidence to support it but that's kinda the gist anyways. confused
Quote by Ben_Minx
I've seen the poison letters of the horrible hacks
. . . . .
But I've never seen a nipple in the Daily Express
John Cooper Clarke

worship :worship: :worship: All hail the bard of Salford, the punk-poet maestro of the flat vowel! lol
Back on topic, once upon a time it was de rigeur in some quarters to claim these poor girls with their baps out were simply poor exploited naifs who didn't know or couldn't do any better but I wonder who's really doing the exploiting, the Sun and its male readers, or the girls who've made their fortunes from those readers? I'm pretty sure many of the girls of old who made reasonably lengthy careers out of it would have hadsomething to say about the campaign to ban girls like them from getting their tits out for the Sun if that's how they choose to earn a living. It seems a pretty simplistic and patronising view IMO.
Great link I've just found about how boobs aren't news. Well no, I don't suppose they are, but then neither is the super, soaraway Sun, is it, so what's your point? dunno
I think Neil that you have slightly over complicated the whole issue.

I know, I know, it was a bit wall of text wasn't it? rolleyes I was trying to cover a lot of ground and you know me, succinct and to the point is not one of my strengths! lol ;)
to allow either legalisation or decriminalisation to take place will I think only help to glorify drugs to an even wider audience of youngsters, and that is surely not a good thing.

The experiment in Portugal would suggest otherwise I think Star. While I wouldn't claim an unmitigated success cos there are bound to be downsides the last report I looked at suggested decriminalisation in Portugal had at least reduced some of the more serious harms associated with intravenous drug use and concomitant HIV infection rates, and increased the number of users seeking treatment. I'd have to do some digging to find more recent figures to back that up which I don't think I've got time for at the minute so bear with me, I'll try and come back with some later.
The message should be that drugs kill and any attempt to say otherwise is wrong.

No. This is precisely where we've gone wrong before with the drugs are bad kids, m'kay thing that kids dismiss as bullshit as soon as they smoke their first puff or drop their first E and discover that actually, drugs can be bloody good fun. Whatever the potential harm of a substance trying to suggest that's not the case is doomed to failure. The emphasis has to be on harm reduction, accepting that human beings have what appears to be a basic, innate drive to alter their consciousness, whether that's making themselves dizzy on roundabouts or holding their breath or playing with mind-altering substances, and providing as much information as is available to make that as safe as is humanly possible. You can't make drug taking absolutely safe in all circumstances no, I wouldn't pretend otherwise but anything other than that is utterly futile, as has been proven.
I had a moment's doubt whether LSD is more properly a tryptamine or a phenylethylamine cos it shares characteristics of both but yes, I knew all that. ;) Drug policy and the way we treat drug users is a bit of a hobby horse of mine if you will GnV. I was looking at making a career of it in some capacity before the OU put it's fees up beyond my reach. Trying to find something in the voluntary sector I can fit round work but without success so far. sad
Quote by GnV
However, is there a difference in people's perception about 'natural' substances and 'manufactured' ones - such as the difference between the herbal benefits of c*n*bis and hard core of things like amphetamines?

I tend not to make much of a distinction between any of the the drugs of (ab)use, particularly addictive ones. Mostly the classification of legal and illegal drugs by relative harm seems quite arbitrary. Is pharmaceutical heroin ( diamorphine ) for instance, prohibition and its harmful consequences aside for the moment, objectively more harmful than alcohol or tobacco for instance? I'm not sure. I think the jury's still out on that one.
As for the difference between manufactured ones and natural ones, it's worth remembering that most drugs were first derived from plant material: LSD from Ergot, Mescaline from certain cacti, Psilocybin from mushrooms, DMT from certain tree barks, MDMA from safrole, cathinones from khat. These would all come under the phenylethylamine class that includes the amphetamines as a sub-group, a class of drugs that mimic naturally produced endogenous neurotransmitters like dopamine and noradrenaline, which accounts for their psychedelic and stimulant effects. I see little point in trying to make a distinction between the semi-synthetic LSD and the naturally occurring psilocybin given the similarity in effects.
the fact that prisoners now have an easier life inside has little if nothing to do with their own quality of life,nor is it a human rights issue,its just down to the fact there is less chance of a riot if inmates are allowed colour tv ,playstation etc etc than if they did not have these items

This really bears repeating Rob, again and again and again for the benefit of those who don't get it thinking prison's gone soft cos it's bang on the money. I forget if it was here or elsewhere but I've made this argument before: Kettles, TVs, Playstations in cells are not there to make a prisoner's life all cushty chaver. They're management tools. Pacifiers. If you're going to bang people up two at a time in 12x8" boxes for 23 hours a day, day in, day out, some of them withdrawing from drug habits, or mentally disturbed in some way, or with a history of violence you better have something available to keep them entertained. A few books a week from the prison library as was pre-2000 for those who can actually read just ain't gonna cut it. I've not checked the figures here, I don't think I need to, cos I'm pretty sure a quick and dirty comparison of the incidence of prison riots the last 11 or 12 years with that of the previous coupla decades would more than demonstrate their value.
The failure of drug policy has been plain to see for anyone with half a brain in their head for decades. Prohibition does nothing to reduce harm. It increases harm, criminalising users forced to buy impure substances on the street at inflated prices that often forces them down a criminal route to pay for their habits, financing gangsters and putting guns on the street in this country, even more guns on the streets in the countries that produce them. Prohibition simply does not work.
The research chemical / legal highs trade is proving this in spades, driving a coach and horses through the legislation. For every substance they ban half a dozen more pop up with only minor tweaks to make them legal. Case in point with the Methoxetamine ( a Ketamine analogue ) ban under a Temporary Class Drug Order in April. Within weeks of the ban RC vendors were offering other Arylcyclohexylamines to replace it, mostly PCP analogues. Newer analogues have come to market since. The same is true for just about any other drug of abuse out there: Opioids, Cannabinoids, Tryptamines, Phenylethylamines, Benzopiazepines, you name it, take your pick, all freely available on the internet. Are these substances more harmful than those they're intended to mimic? Who knows. Noone can say, they don't have a long enough history of use, but potentially much more harmful. It's very likely according to the little research that's been done on these newer drugs that certain combinations of them at least will prove to be dangerously neurotoxic. Much more so than the Ecstasy high users are trying to replicate with some of them for instance, a substance with a long history of use and reasonably well understood dangers. There are designer opioids out there that are to Heroin what Heroin is to Codeine, a 100 times more powerful than Morphine FFS. I don't see how this trade can be stopped. You could bring in broad, sweeping analogue laws like they have in the US, and just like in the US ways will be found around them. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle.
Further idiotic conequences of prohibition would be the difficulty legitimate researchers have studying the therapeutic applications of some of these substances. out just recently on how even a single dose of Ketamine can prove of immense benefit for some sufferers of depressive type illnesses. Not even new news, largely repeating the findings of a previous in 2007. Believe there are other studies going back still further, and the potential therapeutic applications of LSD and MDMA for instance are perhaps even better known. That researchers should have to jump through hoops because of prohibition to be even allowed to conduct even small scale, tightly controlled research into applications that may be of enormous benefit to mankind truly defies all logic.
There are stirrings at last of a sensible debate on the fringes of power but I don't hold out much hope for reform any time soon. The David Nutt Advisory Council on Misuse of Drugs debacle shows Govt will cling to their failed policy against all evidence and rational advice for some time yet at least. What's really interesting at the moment is that David Nutt and colleagues have set up their own as a direct challenge to the ACMD he was sacked from for speaking the truth. Be interesting to see how the ISCD and ACMD are gonna square up to each other in the coming months. A few bruised egos, noses out of joint and professional reputations riding on this in both camps, and no mistake. The cynic in me can't help worrying that it's all a bit preaching to the (mainly) converted so something of an irrelevant side-show to the whole sorry mess really, that won't have all that much of an impact at all straight off, but some on the fringes of Govt some are finally starting to suggest that there must be better alternatives out there to what we've got and we should maybe at least explore them. Hopefully the ISCD will legitimise the attempts of some in Govt to move sensibly in that direction and foster more of it, in time.
You can't, not without reverting to a limited free membership that lets you put an ad and profile together but has no access rights to the forum, chatroom and private messaging system. There are some full members who don't have to pay, because they were already registered members of the site before the takeover in 2005 that saw the site go commercial. They have lifetime free membership. All accounts registered post-takeover are either basic, limited free accounts, or full paid for accounts. That's your options unfortunately.
I'm interested to know what would be considered about our society based on our prison service

That the good work done in the wake of the Strangeways Riots and the Woolf Report that turned the prison service on its head, forcing through long overdue changes to your typical regime has been undone to some extent by our predeliction for jailing so many for quite petty offences, frequently linked to substance abuse for terms of 3, 6 and 12 months where a community penalty and treatment order would be more effective long term. Addiction should be seen more as a health problem than a criminal problem, criminal behaviour being secondary to that addiction. Treat the addiction, treat the causes of crime at the same time. This is a no-brainer. A large transient flow of prisoners on sentences too short to allow for anything even approaching treatment and rehabilitation keeping the prison population at max capacity steals resources away from properly constructive engagement with prisoners serving longer sentences so the whole thing becomes merely an exercise in warehousing bodies.
I think prison officers generally do their best to ensure prison is as safe and humane as it can be in the circumstances but understand only too well it's largely an exercise in futility unless you can seek to address the criminal behaviours of the more serious offenders so they're fit for eventual release. The recidivism rates show that prison doesn't work, except to keep offenders off the streets for a time before kicking them back out in a worse situation than they were before they arrived at prison having only their wits and criminal talents to help them survive before being dragged back to gaol for new offences. It's a merry-go-round, complete waste of time. A more rational prison policy with properly constructive aims is definitely needed, and sooner rather than later. Lot of room for improvement, failure to make those improvememnts indicating we're not so civilised as we could be, and should want to be.
Album Title Goes here? How have I missed that he's got another album out? Thought 4x4=12 was a big improvement over For Lack of a Better Name but he doesn't try hard enough for me. Too content to let the same pattern just repeat and repeat with no attempt to build on it, or break it down, or get all clever with the production so a simple pattern suddenly has layer on layer of added complexity in the way sounds are shaped or made percussive with detailed little self-contained rhythms of their own. Downloading as we speak, will pass verdict on it in a bit.
OMG! :shock: I did didn't I? Well that's it, I blame you for snapping me out of my dozing amidst Dawnie's ample bosom with the shock, horror of it all. You're instead of your? Please, I never do that. Schoolboy error. Must have been quite distracted by something at the time, not properly concentrating on me correct grammar!
I think renationalisation of some industries makes sense, and I don't ever see us returning to the days when a strong union could, or would even attempt anything that undermined the massive benefits for workers from a period of managed, long-term national investment. Railway network case in point: too important for vital infrastructure like that to be parceled up and managed in bits by different companies struggling to get a return on their operating costs as is, let alone invest in new hardware. Needs central planning and national investment in wholesale changes to infrastructure like that. I don't recall anyone ever pointing to France, Germany or Japan and saying look at the state of that, thank God we're not daft enough to have that all that lot nationalised. confused
I blame Dawnie for me coming over all in need of a soft, warm place to lay my weary head all of a sudden. You're fault Dawnie for providing me with the perfect mental image of just such a comfy spot to nuzzle down into. :twisted:
Depends where you're sat I guess GnV, dunnit? dunno Some will no doubt remember though that I've not always been this coherent and reasonable eh, but shush, now's not the time! lol ;)
You do not care if he is guilty or not Rogue, just make it right? I am sure the people who have died because of this man and his followers, will be greatly relieved by your words. No wonder we are a laughing stock.

No, I don't care if he's guilty or not. That's not a question we're being asked to consider, it's a matter for the U.S. courts to determine. What would you prefer? That we don't give him his day in court and extradite him, only for something to come up dismantling the whole thing cos of some neglect for due process thing that we could have taken care of first simply by allowing him the time to exhaust his legal avenues as far as challenging the extradition is concerned? I don't see what makes us a laughing stock about that either? Wouldn't most calmy rational and objective observers see that we've done all the things required of us in this case but it's now out of our hands and respect that? Admire the demonstration that we genuinely believe in these principles we espouse to others even? Why the determination to see us as laughing stocks? Who does that help?
Jags was a very long standing member, one of the first, and one of the first moderators on the forum. Really lovely in PM but a reputation for not suffering fools gladly. Never got to meet her and sorry about that. One of the guys here made that :jagsatwork: emote for her, that Jags could only be a teacher pretty obvious when you thought about it. Could be a stern mistress, oh yes! ;)
One tries Lilith, one tries. lol I'm sometimes spurred to try and raise my game a bit more at times though, knowing who might be reading it. ;)
Give over Cubes. You don't really need me to translate do you? Bear in mind I'm of Scottish descent so the sentiment is even more keenly felt! ;)
Right now mostly Simon Posford's stuff: Shpongle, Infinity Project, Younger Brother, all served up with a sprinkling of Radiohead. Works for me.
Quote by GnV
Lilith - the new jags :scared:

Scared? Stop being such a bloody wuss! Some people might actually quite like the little mental image you've conjured there? Ta for that! :twisted:
"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons."
-Fyodor Dostoevsky
As true now as it was 150 odd years ago. Any nation that still executes its own citizens as a matter of course, regardless of the severity of the original crime being punished fails the civilisation test, and absolutely fails it in my view as soon as simple political expediency and 'popular opinion' trump the duty of care properly owed by the State to the very least of its citizens, even the very worst of them. The death penalty exists to absolve the State of its moral obligation to the citizen it's sworn to protect and defend when it suits, before we even get to the individual facts of individual cases, and that's what makes cold-blooded State execution morally wrong in all circumstances, regardless of the specifics IMO.
On this I'd argue that the reason we elect this Govt or that in the first place is to take the decisions we're not fully qualified to make for ourselves where our darkest, most visceral emotional reactions to the actions of another human being are concerned. It's easy to dress up blood-lust and vengeance as morally just retribution for some crimes, but the darker motives at the heart of capital punishment remain, and taint the soul of the nation. So much so that we've gone so far as a nation as to sign away the right to reintroduce the death penalty come what may domestically with the 2002 signing of Protocol 13 of the ECHR that forbids it, binding us so powerfully to a treaty only the UK's withdrawal from the Council of Europe altogether can unmake. Guess that makes the whole question of a referendum somewhat moot Flower?
Quote by JustWantFun
However, my own level of ability to use grammatically correct English has come from studying foreign languages and not from being taught English grammar formally.

Exactly this. When to use Neil and I or Neil and me for instance. Depends if the Neil and someone are subjects or objects of a verb doesn't it? I was 14 before I grasped that Neil and me could even be the correct usage at times at all, in Latin class, and it wasn't just me. Insisting on Neil and I in all circumstances was an error made by half the class. He had to explain it again and again until it sunk in. We must have been making the same error between us constantly in English, but I don't remember being pulled up on it and having a conversation about proper usage there. Why not? How long did it take me to learn that its is always possessive, and doesn't require an apostrophe? 30 odd bloody years, that's how long! rolleyes