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VenusnMars
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by crosspatch
Nevertheless, at the end of the day, it is still the victim who has to admit and deal with the problem.

Not quite. It`s the victim who has admit and remove themselves from the problem. It`s the abuser who should be dealing with it.
You speak of choices. The victim who chooses to stay because he or she feels that is the best solution at the time. There are so many `rationales` for this. The mother who feels that this `choice` is redundant, because her first obligation is to her children (not splitting up the home), is just one. For them, until a better awareness is reached, the decision to stay is not a choice, for them, it`s a cross they feel they have to bear, and that remains true for whatever `rationale`. Women who find themselves in this situation should not be blamed for not seeing the way out, they are dealing with it in the best way they currently know how. In many cases they are not intending to live with the abuse, believing that what they can offer within the relationship may fix it, this may be futile, but on thier part it is a not an indication that they are choosing to live with it. Some victims may kid themselves, but this is often done unconciously, `choice` implies a conscious decision to gloss over the facts.
Once a realistic way out is recognised (choice), I believe all survivors will try to head for it.
Instead of asking `why do women (or men) choose to stay with abusive partners`, we should be asking `Why do people choose to abuse`, for it is the latter who need to take the responsibility.
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by mellow
... any general discussion is almost inevitably bound to be a fruitless round of collective agreement.
Peace x

ok, maybe fruitless to some, but i think it's been therapeutic to many of us who have posted and also helpful to some who have pm'd...it is the first time that some have seen evidence that they are or were not on their own. it has given courage to those to take their lives forward, either to a more appropriate venue ie: counselling, self help groups etc or to have shared it with others, thereby also a form of healing. the pm's have encouraged people to seek what's right for them, and has opened another few points, which arent suitable for general discussion. maybe it's got too big for this area, but its been an invaluable starting point for many.
Then that`s terrific biggrin
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by crosspatch
To avoid any imminent brickbats, I shall repeat once more that I am fully aware that I am putting forward a very simplistic view of a complex problem, but I believe the principle holds nonetheless.
VENUS ….. Your analogy to electricity is very much more valid than Easy’s re Special Forces’ resistance to abuse, for they assuredly have no choice in their situation.
For all that Venus, would you (and others) accept that we do not live in isolation or in a vacuum? That being so, by merely mingling with others in society even in such mundane situations as in the supermarket, the victim will be made aware (conscious), but quite possibly choose to ignore, that her (allow me to be sexist please!) situation is not the acceptable norm.
Therefore, unlike electricity, the situation can be “seen” and so, at least theoretically, a choice can be made …… However, as I stated a little earlier, it may take a long time or an outside catalyst or a number of other factors before it actually dawns on the victim that she has such a choice …… Whether the victim then refuses to acknowledge even to herself that she has the choice is another matter.
I know that is harshly or even unfairly put, for it presupposes to some extent that even at that stage, the victim has sufficient mental and emotional strength to break the shackles.
But to move on …. see next post

Well, I suppose it would all depend on your definition of isolation. Easy asked for examples and they were provided. Granted these people may have been able to shop, bank, take the kids to school etc, but the human contact often needed to break the pattern of abuse is all too often denied. Shopping will not provide this. In fact, next time you are in a Supermarket, ask yourself how many of the shoppers there are currently living in an abusive situation themselves. There`s a good chance there will be at least one, and they will seemingly be `happy`. Seeing normality prooves nothing to the victim, especially when they themselves are wearing the `mask`. If anything, the juxtapostion enforces the idea that thier situation is hopeless.
I`m not saying that all victims can not recognise that thier situation is not normal, they merely do not recognise the strength within themselves to break this. Given the the fact that an abuser can often twist a persons mind where they feel they are to blame somewhat, how would they?
All in all, I`d say that there is evidence that some do have sufficiant mental and emotional strength and realisation to break the shackles. They do not choose to accept the abuse. It make take weeks, months or years, but they don`t choose to live with it, they choose to escape. Those who do not have access to this, do not have this choice available to them, and they are the ones who become another statistic.
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
As some of the posters here pointed out (male and female) there is a choice, those who posted took it. However, until that strength and understanding is reached, which you rightly point out, that choice is simply not there for the victim. I think it should be emphasised how unavailable this choice is to those who are isolated and abused, for suggesting otherwise could seem to some to be suggesting it`s asked for. I know that`s not what you are doing Crosspatch, I`m just pointing out how careful one should be with the wording.
Think of it as say, discovering electricity, it`s always been out there, but until it was harnessed, noone used it. Did these people choose not to use it, or were they simply unaware?
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Can I just say that Mrs TnH has the pert boobs I`d kill to have?!
She`s had kids! How dare she!
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by McGuinness
Hi, i don't know what this is in relation to, but i'm guessing its an MRI scan, if so don't worry his fillings, mars and the MRI machine will be safe. The fillings may distort the picture if they are scanning his mouth area but they won't become magnetised. HTH if its not in relation to MRI scans then please ignore me.
Hope whatever it is that Mars is okay

No, nothing like that, it was a random flippant (and slightly drunken) thought concerning him `going down` on someone with peircings!
BTW, the asprin and water worked, no hangover! :mrgreen:
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Mars has too many fillings. Will this be a problem? What if they become `magnetised`?!
I have visions of him going to work all week with someone `attached` to his mouth :shock:
Yes, the Californian Rose was lovely, thankyou for asking :mrgreen:
Misschief, go to bed, all hell won`t break loose if there`s no moderator on for the rest of the night...........
Honest! :twisted:
Yes, I will take asprin, and drink lots of water before I hit the sack.
Goodnight!
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Cos I`m addicted to four different forums, most of which have `deep and meaningful` discussions happening on them.............
It`s Friday night (no, don`t get pedantic on me) I should know better! :doh:
What I need is a damn good seeing to to put me on the straight and narrow!
What I`m actually going to get is bed, then a bollocking in the morning for not shaving my legs tonight when I get my Saturday morning shag!
Night all
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Okaaaaaay. now I`m not sure what I voted! What DID you do you muppet?! lol
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
I`m not saying what I voted :twisted: wink BUT.............
What a fantastic figure!
I hate her! :P (but not too much, I still have her camera!)
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Despite the fear of digging a bigger hole for myself, you deserve an answer Libra (but please know I am a nice person who doesn`t want to upset you surprised )
I`ll use a statement I used earlier in the thread, and turn it around some.
Quote by VenusnMars
Often people need to learn to love themselves first. To the abused, it`s often the only `love` they have ever known.
sad
Venusxxx

And sometimes it`s the only `love` they learn to give, hence the pattern of abuse repeating in families. It is in fact a pattern of control which some abused can crave. They just don`t always recognise it, many choose not to (so deserve everything they get).
An abuser I once spoke with who`d come out the other side, once told me `My blood father taught me how to abuse women, my step-father taught me how to abuse chilldren.
He is not in a good place right now, and he didn`t recognise his abuse until much too late. I`d have liked to have heard him take more responsibility, there are many out there who have broken the circle. He did..........eventually. Too little, too late. He was responsible for that at the very least. He should have broken it before he hurt people.
But then come the questions of `if some of the abused can`t break the circle, why is it not acceptable that some of the abusers can`t`
But that is a grey area I don`t want to acknowledge just yet. I`m happier with my condemnation.
It is a huge subject though, one which I won`t pretend to understand completely.
I really hoped that helped, cos I hate digging holes for myself.
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by Silk and Big G
Hehe
i have no idea when youre editing , my multiplicity of talents do not extend to psychic ability . If you wanna burn me , then mind your fingers cos im teflon !
OK ill accept that its possible yer man may be able to take some insight from what has been said . I also accept that the people posting are doing their best in every way to voice their own experience , but truth is - as youve said in not so many words yourself in the thread- they probably dont know their reasons really themselves.
You use the word dissect like its an insult , but surely a question of this magnitude requires at least some level of dissection otherwise its redundant . To say that individuals put up with such treatment because they are ' in love' has no more real worth than just saying they put up with it because they 'like it' .both statements can only be of worth in his understanding if he can appreciate what each and every individuals definition of those words is (and a thousand years of poetry and prose has failed to define at least one of them) .
I hope he did learn something , or at least someone did . I suppose if nothing else we all learned a little about how people answer questions .
Slightly Singed but not Bowed
G xx

My edit was to correct my misreading, nothing sinister!
I do however disagree with a couple of your points. Many of those who have posted and have come out the otherside, probably do know and understand (excuse the assumption, I don`t know the realities of people here) the `why` and `whatfors` of thier own experiances. Coming through issues like these creates strong and very self-aware people. With that, yes, I do feel that dissection would be a little insulting to the people who shared their experiances here, because of this thread is valuable because of the insights they shared, without that dissection becoming a necessity.
My words which you read as ` they probably dont know their reasons really themselves` don`t actually refer to those who posted here, but to many of those who have not yet managed to change thier lot.
I won`t take defining `staying through love`, because 1. Mars is reminding me that it`s his go on the PC, and 2. I know that those who posted will post a much more articulate answer than I, and yeah, my brain hurts!
However, I will take a moment to say, that regardless of grey areas etc, abuse is unnaccpetable whatever form form it takes, and I am in no way shape or form demeaning the hardship it causes.
I have the greatest admiration for those who have posted here.
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Well one example would be the `vunerable` person who doesn`t see they are being abused. If they don`t see it as abuse, is it abuse if they don`t feel abused? Then the person who dishes out abusive behaviour, but isn`t aware it`s abuse, is it abuse if they are not meaning it as such............
I know, that doesn`t actually explainanything, but it is an icky subject that is out there!
How about people who are into serious and sometimes harmful S&M, sometimesit can be a product of early abuse, should this be rectified? Or is the sexual outlet an acceptable way of dealing with these issues?
Or the person who sends a PM with the words `I`ll kill you for that` in big red bold writing. Ones persons abuse, anothers term of expression!
But as I am stepping into `armchair psychology` territory and don`t wish to be flamed, I`ll shuddup now! :uhoh:
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Actually I think it`s only right and fair that Neil replies to each and every poster on this thread.
I see plenty of posts being ignored by him.
Ignorant bastard! :twisted:
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Aww, I`d never want burn you smile
But I shall if you reply whilst I`m editing again! rotflmao
wink
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Yes there is a common scenario shared by many victims and thier abusers. Enough is known about it to make for a valid discussion I feel. Perhaps not a discussion which would highlight every facet, but a valuable one nonetheless.
I believe Crosspatch has been given insights he did not have previously, and that kind of awareness is invaluable. smile
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Very true if you want and need to dissect it, but the stories told here are cases of abuse without question, and the replies here pertain to this kind of abuse, as do the answers. smile
Abuse = Harming someone physically and/or mentally against thier will.
Simple really.
Unless you want to get into cases of people who are being abused but are not ........
Ok, I`m going to have to burn you now :huh:
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by MISSCHIEF
and i'll be complaining to a mod in the strongest possible terms

Another mod here to help Neil! :therethere:
Not sure it should be done in public tho ...........
so I'm gonna take this to PMs ok :lol2:
OMG, I think I just pissed myself! :giggle:
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by Calista
I have huge problems over doing it .... how can I complain when I did it back? Albeit once!

((((((((Calista)))))))) When you posted that, I could almost hear the entire forum applaud.
That many people cannot be wrong!
So neither were you. :love:
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by neilinleeds
heather, i've stayed out of this thread, because my understanding is limited on this, although it is very close to home! but you've brought up a good point!
once in my life, i found myself in a 5 year relationship, where her sole aim towards the end, seemed to be to belittle me at every opportunity. if i walked away from a row to remove the risk that i might actually snap and hit her, she'd follow me into the street, and do it in public. mostly her belittling was in public, very vocally, and often, among friends and family, who really didn't want to see or hear it, and offered the simple advice leave. it's not so easy when you still love them in spite of all they do though! and yes it does tend to isolate you, cos noone really wants to know about it. it's embarassing for them, as well as us!
fortunately i can swear hand on heart i never lost control like that, because i would have hated myself even more than i did for allowing her issues to become mine in that way. i thought i could be strong, and help her through it, and it was just a bad phase that needed excuses on my part. therein lies the other side of the coin for many women i think. it's about as bad a place as you can be when you love someone who needs to do that to you, yet still you forgive it. and it takes a certain kind of strength to walk away, and leaves a certain kind of guilt!
neil

Oh yeah, that`d be that third one biggrin (((Neil)))
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Heather, abuse works both ways, and from what I know, your friend was a victim of abuse. It was self defense! Not the best approach, and he`s obviously paying for that now, but one which had it`s reasons. It was hardly systematic abuse which destroyed her psyche.
A while ago, a lady here posted that when she finally found the courage to leave her partner, she broke his jaw in the escape, nobody told her she was an abuser as a result. The abuse she received was physical, but mental abuse can be just as damaging.
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Quote by easy
There are a lot of psychological theories that suggest that the pattern for the type of relationships we will have in adult life is formed in our early years. So is it so unreasonable for people who have been abused as children, or witnessed domestic abuse in their childhood, to seek out a partner who is abusive?
Not at all. Often people need to learn to love themselves first. To the abused, it`s often the only `love` they have ever known.
sad
Venusxxx
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VenusnMars
Sex God
Having spoken to quite a few abused women, I`ve found two reasons for this pattern which are quite common. One is that some of these women were abused as a children, and they`ve told me that they are often attracted to controlling characters from the outset (marrying their fathers, as Libra-love mentioned), and the other is that after years of systematic abuse, they never felt they deserved anything better. Yet they often didn`t recognise that they were getting into yet another abusive relationship. Many abusers `warm up` to it, they can be manipulative, and start subtley. Therein lays the control.
As a result, the `very little` mental change you speak of, is not as easy as it might seem to a person on the outside.
I hope that helps smile
Venusxxx
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